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  1. wonko221 is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 4:34pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kregna View Post
    I do neither Judo, nor BJJ, but how was that Kimura guy able to beat Helio Gracie on the ground through Judo if it's newaza is rubbish compared to BJJ (what you're saying)?

    I'm not trying to be smart I'm genuinely curious
    Judo as it's often practiced has shifted focus to standing rather than groundwork.

    Judo grappling is not in-and-of itself rubbish, but there is little return-on-investment for competitive Judoka to develop a strong ground-game when the refs are looking for any excuse to stand you back up. Because many people focus on competition as the purpose of judo, instruction on newaza has declined at many schools.
  2. Kregna is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 4:58pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonko221 View Post
    Judo as it's often practiced has shifted focus to standing rather than groundwork.

    Judo grappling is not in-and-of itself rubbish, but there is little return-on-investment for competitive Judoka to develop a strong ground-game when the refs are looking for any excuse to stand you back up. Because many people focus on competition as the purpose of judo, instruction on newaza has declined at many schools.

    Well explained. Thank you

    It's a shame that martial arts have become sporty and watered down (not necessarily the case with judo, but think of how many crap tae kwon do and karate schools there are)
  3. JudOWNED is offline
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    北斗十字固拳

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 6:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IIRC, Kimura also threw the hell out of Helio and, therefor, entered into newaza from a superior position. Plus BJJ has come a LONG WAY since the times that the Gracies didn't even know what a triangle choke was until they got it from a Judo book.
  4. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/15/2010 1:02pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wonko221 View Post
    Judo as it's often practiced has shifted focus to standing rather than groundwork.

    Judo grappling is not in-and-of itself rubbish, but there is little return-on-investment for competitive Judoka to develop a strong ground-game when the refs are looking for any excuse to stand you back up. Because many people focus on competition as the purpose of judo, instruction on newaza has declined at many schools.

    Quite true. And the groundwork abilities of Judo dan ranks are pretty inconsistent. I've seen black belts struggle with BJJ blue belts. But I've also seen a (very good) black belt hand a visiting BJJ brown belt his ass on the ground, armlocking him 3 times in 5 minutes. And then there are world class Judo guys who will wreck all but the best BJJ guys (e.g. Flavio Canto).
  5. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/15/2010 3:41pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    Quite true. And the groundwork abilities of Judo dan ranks are pretty inconsistent. I've seen black belts struggle with BJJ blue belts. But I've also seen a (very good) black belt hand a visiting BJJ brown belt his ass on the ground, armlocking him 3 times in 5 minutes. And then there are world class Judo guys who will wreck all but the best BJJ guys (e.g. Flavio Canto).
    To be honest with you the all round abilities of Judo dan grades is massively inconsistent. The more I travel the more depressed I get with the level of Judo in the UK there are so many poor quality dan grades with massive technical holes in their standing and ground games. Although every now and then I run into a couple of guys or a whole club where there's some serious skill, they are vastly outweighed by the technically poor dan grades.
  6. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
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    Posted On:
    8/15/2010 4:10pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    To be honest with you the all round abilities of Judo dan grades is massively inconsistent. The more I travel the more depressed I get with the level of Judo in the UK there are so many poor quality dan grades with massive technical holes in their standing and ground games. Although every now and then I run into a couple of guys or a whole club where there's some serious skill, they are vastly outweighed by the technically poor dan grades.
    Same for the US, although it depends a bit more on which part of the country you are in.

    I've gone to small clubs in the south where they thought I was some sort of technical wizard, when in reality at my best I was maybe a little above mediocre. I can remember doing ashi barai to other black belts, who had no idea what I was doing or how I did it.

    So many people do Judo on a recreational basis, and get promoted on that basis, that in the US at least the overall quality is not so high. You can have guys who got promoted up to shodan or nidan , or even higher, who never competed in many shiai, and those that they competed in were local or regional affairs without a very high level of competition.

    Ben
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