Thoughts on the army rangers combatives manual from the man who wrote it

**mrtnira** · Posted On: 7/24/2010 10:50am

Monesta, thanks for noting the problem with compliance as a condition of context.

Psychiatric patients present a challenge, and plenty of law enforcement / security personnel run into people with mental/emotional challenges all the time. Also, hospital personnel may be challenged with people who are not thinking straight and non-compliant, but within the confines of the hospital.

These emotional conditions don't always require mental inability. Some times, it is because of a loved one in the hospital and the family member is not responsive to hospital personnel. Consumed with fear, anger, frustration, or grief, they no longer can hear sound instruction or behave appropriately.

Yep, some of my security background is showing.... The context of incident is a factor in how people respond.

Ranger Joe, your in-put is right on the money. 30 years ago (oh, my), when going through police reserve training, the "sleeper" was a carotid artery squeeze (a V compression across both sides of the neck with the forearm and bicep), which was considered at the level of deadly force in California at the time because a couple of people had died through its use (influenced by age, medical condition, etc). The straight across the throat choke, was unlawful.

**3moose1** · Posted On: 7/24/2010 11:09am

Whoa there piglets, whats with all the mcmap talk?

I have a Sergeant in my Platoon, who got his blackbelt from the guy who helped write the Manual.

Also, blood chokes aren't, "deadly force". I don't care. Sure, they are deadly....if you hold them for 1+ minutes. If I were to kill someone with my bare hands, let me assure you I wouldn't use a damn RNC, I'd be neck cranking...

**DdlR** · Posted On: 7/24/2010 12:12pm

Originally Posted by ranger joe

Positional asphyxia and blood chokes are two different animals and I don't think that they should not be compared.

I realize that blood chokes and P.A. aren't identical; I maintain that blood chokes are believed to have been a factor in accidental P.A. deaths.

**mrtnira** · Posted On: 7/24/2010 8:42pm

3Moose1, in this case one thing to get past is "what it means to me". Concerning my comment, it isn't what you or I declare to be deadly force, it is what courts or policy considered deadly force at that time of instruction.

I was reflecting on policy instructions at a time and place.

Also, context counts: Considering it looks like you're a Marine, you may be thinking about combat in close quarters in Afghanistan, whereas there had been some prior discussion about controlling or arresting mentally disturbed people in more civil environments.

In the escalation of force instruction, I was surpised to find that the baton and the gun were also both held at the level of deadly force. That was an unexpected definition that I haven't my mind around to this day, but some officer misused it at some point and it was then defined to the level of deadly force.

Again, I'm not in agreement with that one, either, but I didn't make that policy at the time, and it wasn't "what it means to me". It comes back to policy, place, and context, not my opinion.

**ranger joe** · Posted On: 7/25/2010 3:23pm

Originally Posted by 3moose1

Whoa there piglets, whats with all the mcmap talk?

Actually we were not talking about MCMAP (Marine Corp Martial Arts Program) We were talking about Modern Army Combatives and Mr. larson who spear-headed the creation of them. I assume your a cop also if your referring to me as a "piglet" or your just trying to be an insulting douchbag and get your jabs in on a cop over the computer. Your awesome.

I have a Sergeant in my Platoon, who got his blackbelt from the guy who helped write the Manual.

What is your point. I trained, albiet for a brief time with Mr. Larson and have at least earned a small amount of input on this site even though i am a "newby". I dont claim to be a subject matter expert on anything however I do feel I have at least earned my opinion.

Also, blood chokes aren't, "deadly force". I don't care. Sure, they are deadly....if you hold them for 1+ minutes. If I were to kill someone with my bare hands, let me assure you I wouldn't use a damn RNC, I'd be neck cranking...

No one actually stated that they are in fact deadly force. We stated that they were "considered" deadly force on the use of force "ladder". I dont personally feel that they should be considered Deadly Force. That was my point. Im talking about using them in specific incidents instead of going to hard hands or a baton. Blood choke have the "ability" to cause death, hence they are considered Deadly Force in court and for most police agencies, and frankly thats all that matters. If I was going to go around "neck cranking" people as you suggested I think I would transition to a more effective weapon. Just my humble opinion.

RLTW

**ranger joe** · Posted On: 7/25/2010 3:27pm

Actually we were not talking about MCMAP (Marine Corp Martial Arts Program) We were talking about Modern Army Combatives and Mr. larson who spear-headed the creation of them. I assume your a cop also if your referring to me as a "piglet" or your just trying to be an insulting douchbag and get your jabs in on a cop over the computer. Your awesome.

I have a Sergeant in my Platoon, who got his blackbelt from the guy who helped write the Manual.

What is your point. I trained, albiet for a brief time with Mr. Larson and have at least earned a small amount of input on this site even though i am a "newby". I dont claim to be a subject matter expert on anything however I do feel I have at least earned my opinion

Also, blood chokes aren't, "deadly force". I don't care. Sure, they are deadly....if you hold them for 1+ minutes. If I were to kill someone with my bare hands, let me assure you I wouldn't use a damn RNC, I'd be neck cranking...[/quote]

No one actually stated that they are in fact deadly force. We stated that they were "considered" deadly force on the use of force "ladder". I dont personally feel that they should be considered Deadly Force. That was my point. Im talking about using them in specific incidents instead of going to hard hands or a baton. Blood choke have the "ability" to cause death, hence they are considered Deadly Force in court and for most police agencies, and frankly thats all that matters. If I was going to go around "neck cranking" people as you suggested I think I would transition to a more effective weapon. Just my humble opinion.

RLTW

**ranger joe** · Posted On: 7/25/2010 3:33pm

3moose1

I realized that my post may come across harsh. I took your post as a bit insulting and condescending. If it was not meant to be, my apologies. I was offering my experience both in the military with Army Combatives, Larson, and my experience as a police officer to be relevent to this thread. I was offering my opinion on "deadly force" as a police officer who has sat through numerous lectures of the law both state and federal and policy on deadly force. If you are not a cop, then your opinion means bupkis as far as procedure, however it may be relavent in other manners. Please refrain from calling me an insulting name like "piglet". It is childish and doesn't facilitate clear thinking or dialogue.

**Styygens** · Posted On: 7/25/2010 4:57pm

Favor please... Could the folks, especially the noobs, who deserve LEO or Military tags please visit the Bullshido Support Forum and find the Tag Request thread?

I've seen a bunch of new users come on claiming military and/or LEO experience. Requesting the tag and providing the necessary info to the mods can save everyone a lot of unnecessary drama later.

Just a suggestion. Thanks.