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  1. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    7/21/2010 1:47pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ranger joe View Post
    Most agencies that I know of now do not allow "blood chokes". I cant tell you how many times I have been wrestling on the ground with a guy and saw a RNC or guillitine(SP?) and not been allowed to use it. Simple, Effective, and I cant use it unless its "deadly force". Sad really.
    Does that mean that "wind" chokes ARE allowed? If so it is patently insane. Blood chokes are way faster and in my mind that makes them safer for both people.
  2. dwkfym is offline
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    Yours truly

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    Posted On:
    7/21/2010 2:42pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     PDS Rifles Style: Univ. Florida Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There must be some lame-ass case where blood chokes are deadly force now. If I go to the ground in a defense situation I will go for more painful, more permanent joint locks instead.
  3. C0WB0Y is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/21/2010 8:03pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dwkfym View Post
    There must be some lame-ass case where blood chokes are deadly force now. If I go to the ground in a defense situation I will go for more painful, more permanent joint locks instead.

    See State of Maryland vs. Kevin Killian

    The prosecution referred to the rear naked choke as the 'LAPD Sleeper Hold'.

    Seriously.
  4. ranger joe is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/21/2010 9:10pm


     Style: Grappling/bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    Does that mean that "wind" chokes ARE allowed? If so it is patently insane. Blood chokes are way faster and in my mind that makes them safer for both people.

    Well, you caught an error of mine. Actually blood and wind chokes are considered one in the same for "use of force" situations. Both are not allowed except under extreme circumstances. My error for leaving that out.
  5. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/22/2010 3:49pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know the thread has moved on to LEO defensive tactics, but I thought it might be worth mentioning that Matt Larsen is on the cover of the September 2010 Black Belt Magazine.

    Video here: http://www.blackbeltmag.com/basic-tr...n/archives/905
  6. thatrugbyguy is online now

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2010 7:53pm


     Style: Krotty/Crapple/Goonery

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    I know the thread has moved on to LEO defensive tactics, but I thought it might be worth mentioning that Matt Larsen is on the cover of the September 2010 Black Belt Magazine.

    Video here: http://www.blackbeltmag.com/basic-tr...n/archives/905
    That was certainly more worthwhile watching than most of the stuff that turns up in that magazine.
  7. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/22/2010 8:35pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It gets better... The magazine also has a brief profile of MCMAP "founder" Cardo Urso, the senior NCO there at the beginning. It turns out he retired and now runs an MMA school! I did not know that.
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2010 4:44am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ranger joe View Post
    Well, you caught an error of mine. Actually blood and wind chokes are considered one in the same for "use of force" situations. Both are not allowed except under extreme circumstances. My error for leaving that out.
    The major liability issue with blood chokes is that, given limited training time, no referees and the confusion of a real-life street drama, it can be hella hard for an officer in the field to distinguish between "subject violently resisting arrest" and "subject desperately trying not to die". This is compounded in team takedown situations - again, the same problem is faced by prison guards and psych. workers. It only takes a bit too much pressure for a bit too long and suddenly a simple restraint turns deadly (positional asphyxia FTW, except that everyone loses).
  9. ranger joe is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2010 6:43pm


     Style: Grappling/bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    The major liability issue with blood chokes is that, given limited training time, no referees and the confusion of a real-life street drama, it can be hella hard for an officer in the field to distinguish between "subject violently resisting arrest" and "subject desperately trying not to die". This is compounded in team takedown situations - again, the same problem is faced by prison guards and psych. workers. It only takes a bit too much pressure for a bit too long and suddenly a simple restraint turns deadly (positional asphyxia FTW, except that everyone loses).

    Positional asphyxia and blood chokes are two different animals and I don't think that they should not be compared. Being in a fight, potentially for your life and knowing that there is at least "1" gun in whatever fight your in brings a different aspect to "street fighting". Almost always having to be "reactive" means a lot of times your starting behind the power curve. Your rolling around, getting scraped up, wearing all kinds of gear (which can lead to injuries) maybe being outnumbered, maybe be in traffic, or a confined space. Bottem line, get the fight over with fast. Often times a RNC is in my humble opinion is a way to go. If I start punching someone, what if I break my hand? Of course im going to use my strong hand, which is my gun hand, so now I have a broken hand and the fight turns deadly...and again im behind the power curve. Obviously we can't haphazordly apply RNC's to everyone ("Hey sir...that a fine looking donut ya got there...RNC!!!!!!") It takes training, and there is a time to use it (just like all weapons, gun, pepper, taser, words) but I think we should be allowed to use it on a lower level of force. Anyway, just my thoughts on it. By the way I heard Matt larson is a BB in BJJ as well as the creator of the MACP.
  10. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2010 10:30am


     Style: 空手 / &#2147

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dwkfym View Post
    There must be some lame-ass case where blood chokes are deadly force now. If I go to the ground in a defense situation I will go for more painful, more permanent joint locks instead.
    I know that you are referring to a SD situation, but to take this into a psychiatric context: Joint locks aren't such a good option when dealing with psychiatric patients per se. E.g.: people having a psychosis; they can be so 'mental' that they don't even notice breaking something.

    Can't the derail about mental health care be given it's own thread? I really like the original thread as it was.
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