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  1. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2010 12:57pm

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Judo posture vs BJJ posture (standing)

    How do BJJ guys get away with the bent at the waist posture during standup? In Judo I feel like this would get you thrown on your ass immediately but I constantly see BJJ guys getting away with it. More importantly what Judo throws can I use against people that bend forward at the waist?
  2. speedycerviche is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2010 1:13pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I find that hikikomi gaeshi and sumi gaeshi work the best for me. One of my coaches keeps telling me to do osoto gari against people bent over like that but I can not get it to work for myself. I have also seen and found tomoe nage, ashi uchi mata and the hip throw where you grab the belt to work well.
  3. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/14/2010 1:51pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    How do BJJ guys get away with the bent at the waist posture during standup? In Judo I feel like this would get you thrown on your ass immediately but I constantly see BJJ guys getting away with it. More importantly what Judo throws can I use against people that bend forward at the waist?
    <Disclaimer: Based on what I do in Judo rather than BJJ>

    That stance is good at preventing body contact at the front so if you look at it from a very simplistic point of view it makes it difficult to take advantage of the obvious problem with that stance by throwing you're opponent forward. If you don't have a lot of Judo experience or if you just get caught up in looking to throw the guy forward then it makes it very hard to do anything.

    Take advantage of the bent over stance by establishing a nice tight elbow down high collar grip. I don't actually take this grip much in Judo because I honestly think it's too hard to get against someone who's good (Polish guy in my club threw everyone who tried to get this grip on him with seionage, it was beautiful), telegraphs your intention and can be a crux for bad technique BUT when it's presented to you on a plate you can take it with little risk.

    Take advantage of their wider legs and the power of the high collar grip by moving around a bit, don't try to drag them around particularly, just move yourself around an bit while they have a grip on you and see what happens. Change directions, step in, step out,eventually they won't be able to keep up and will start to come off balance, even straighten up to keep their balance and when they do that you get to strike with what's practically a "free" throw as they can't really attack you while bent over or coming upright.

    If you want techniques for someone that work off the mark while they are still bent over you have the typical trick of doing an uchimata as well, this works if you can move around their arms a little bit. You could try tomoenage and sumigaeshi as well though you obviously expose yourself to quite a bit of risk doing that in BJJ because you can't just stall for a restart form guard. You've got snap downs as well (not in Judo though :( ) and arm locks open as well whilst stepping backwards.

    Finally for the sheer comedy value of it you have a lovely kosotto gari variant open to you which is my all time favourite counter to a bent over stance.

    Assuming a normal right grip:

    1) Drive your sleeve gripping hand (left) towards the opponents same side (right) foot to place his weight on that whilst bringing the other hand up into his face and tipping him towards that foot

    2) Step in and to the side slightly, this works well because you don't have to be too close in to perform the technique, just in range to sweep his right foot with you're left leg

    3) Reap the right foot

    4) Take a moment to giggle at the fact you're opponent has just sat down heavily on his bum and is slightly confused

    5 a) If you're really quick, step you're right foot against his side so the shin is in contact with his still sitting upper body and pivot around him to take his back

    5 b) If you're only normally quick, power him onto his back as you move past his legs and enter newazza

    I love doing this but don't get to do it much in Judo because people don't bend at the waist that much and it isn't an ippon throw for me though the pin is obviously. Not sure how well 5 b will work in BJJ, I've only done it once myself in Judo but I figure that it would be worth trying in BJJ.
  4. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2010 2:28pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by speedycerviche View Post
    I find that hikikomi gaeshi and sumi gaeshi work the best for me.
    These are money against a bent over posture. Uchimata, Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi, Valley Drops, Belly Rolls. Or just play nice for a few seconds, then just snap them down brutally.
  5. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2010 2:55pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As to why BJJers get away with the bent over stance? I've only seen a handful of judo throws attempted at any of the BJJ tournaments I've been to. Maybe 2 of them were successful. There just isn't enough judo going on at BJJ tournaments for people to realize that there is a disadvantage to that stance.
    However there is a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage for people who stand overly upright since I see a dozen double and single legs at every tournament which are way harder to do against someone who is crouched down low "wrestling" style.
  6. OSPF is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2010 3:03pm


     Style: Sōsetsuken

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Off the top of my head:
    Uchimata
    Hane-goshi
    Harai-Ogoshi
    Tai-Otoshi
    Ippon-Seoi-Nage
  7. Iainkelt is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2010 3:35pm


     Style: 10thP/BJJ/Wrestling/Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    As to why BJJers get away with the bent over stance? I've only seen a handful of judo throws attempted at any of the BJJ tournaments I've been to. Maybe 2 of them were successful. There just isn't enough judo going on at BJJ tournaments for people to realize that there is a disadvantage to that stance.
    However there is a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage for people who stand overly upright since I see a dozen double and single legs at every tournament which are way harder to do against someone who is crouched down low "wrestling" style.
    This mirrors my experience as well. Being from the Midwest I run into a lot more wrestlers than I do judoka (although I've certainly seen them at tourneys as well). Most of the takedowns I see are single or double legs...or just bear hug trips/mauling. So I think a lot of BJJ guys are bent over that way to try and shield their legs from a wrestling shot as a reaction to their prior experiences. But I definitely agree that there is a trade off in taking that stance, I guess it's just a question of whether or not the other person is able to recognize it and take advantage.
  8. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/14/2010 3:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pretty much, yeah, the low posture makes it easier to block the shot and harder for your opponent to get underhooks on you.
    Also, keep in mind that a lot of the throws that are being recommended (uchimata, various sutemi waza) are high risk in BJJ. An uchimata leaves you with a high risk of losing your back or getting reversed on landing in BJJ, and you don't have to worry about someone passing your guard after a failed sacrifice throw nearly as much in Judo as in BJJ because of the standups.
    The fool thinks himself immortal,
    If he hold back from battle;
    But old age will grant him no truce,
    Even if spears spare him.
  9. Blue Negation is offline

    Woke up in the mortuary

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2010 3:50pm


     Style: Judo, Sub wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I like getting the double lapel grip and doing a snap down. If it fails, it still usually lets me get a belt grip. I then transfer the remaining belt grip to sleeve grip just above the elbow.

    Then:
    If they try to grab your leg, either hook their thigh with it and sit for hikkomi gaeshi, or get it deep for uchi-mata.

    If they try to back away ("wtf is going on, I can't even pull guard from here?!") mostly backwards or in the direction of your sleeve grip, follow and apply osoto gari.

    If they try to back away to the opposite direction of your sleeve grip, let them get a bit ahead of you (you want their sleeve-grip-side leg to be back, so there's space for your head) do the version of hikkomi gaeshi where you put your head and their arm with your sleeve grip into the gap where their leg is back and spin sideways, pulling them over with your belt grip. (6:37 here YouTube- Tomo nage Ura nage Sumi gaeshi Hikkomi gaeshi Tawara gaeshi, different grip though). This is a fun one.

    If they put any forward pressure into you but don't have a grip on your leg, do harai goshi. You can either let the belt grip go as they go over and end with arm control standing over him, or go down too but hop your leg or legs over just after impact to avoid them taking your back.

    If they start posturing up, especially if they have a leg, you must attack immediately. Hikkomi gaeshi usually works if they're just trying to straighten up, but do something. If you let them straighten up they can te guruma the hell out of you if you are complacent. Lots of wrestlers know the move, so don't feel like you're invincible.

    If they just stall there uncertainly, snap them down by turning away+stepping back and pulling them into the "empty space". No harm in ending up in side-ride.


    disclaimer: you'd be well served by training Judo for a bit before trying any of these, especially the sideways hikkomi gaeshi.
    Last edited by Blue Negation; 7/14/2010 3:55pm at .
  10. hpr is offline
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    Knock-off Cthulhu

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2010 5:46pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know no judo at all but I finally figured at least something to try. Now bear in mind all of this was done against other white belts with no previous grappling skills at all, which is why I had any success.

    If I decide to attack their sleeve gripping arm (typically gripping my left sleeve) I release my collar grip, do a 2-on-1 to the sleeve gripping arm, step sideways and turn around quickly pulling his arm. I guess this is a variation of arm drag. Then I turn quickly back to them, release the second grip, grab the same side collar, push the arm, step forward and go for outside reap.

    The other thing I might try is to simply go for an overhook for the sleeve gripping arm to get them more bent over. Then I go for belt grip and either James Bondian moves for kicking them over me (hikkomi gaeshi?) or when brave I try out a throw. Throws have failed miserably, though. I'm never close and low enough to get under their balance. Sometimes I'm stubborn enough to drag them to the mat with the failed throw and thus find moderate success.

    Regarding the previous I think I've actually released the overhook to grab the belt while pulling down from sleeve.

    Anyway, I know this is crap advice but maybe I'll sneakily get someone baited enough to give some advice in between their constant facepalming.
    Curiosity killed the cat. But damn it had a blast.
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