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  1. W. Rabbit is offline
    W. Rabbit's Avatar

    insight combined with intel, fuse, and dynamite

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2010 9:07am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pen View Post
    Sorry, White Rabbit, not going to do it. I already offered earlier in this thread to help you out with your Chinese language study, give you advice, suggestions, etc for free if you like. This as someone who studied/studies the same style you do, and has read books in Chinese on Hung Ga (e.g. Lam Sai Wing's). If you're serious about that, PM me, and we can chat via PM, email, or phone, whatever you like.

    I'm not continuing this nonsense on here. And if you think you're learning anything from chainpull except how to embarrass yourself on the internet, then you may be beyond hope. I sincerely hope that's not the case.
    Actually Pen I was most interested in the things you had to say since we share a style. Your advice was great I will take it to heart. I'm sorry if I caused a snafu.

    And I am already beyond hope but hey, no big deal.

    Take care,

    Wood Rabbit
  2. chainpunch is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2010 9:30am

    Business Class Supporting Member
      Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pen View Post
    Since you don't feel like doing any homework and answering my questions, here's a freebie for you.
    Firstly, I think I have answered any questions you asked of me unless its an oversight which is possible since follow up questions to misconstrued statements can be considered rhetorical and maybe no answer is warranted. I do want to point out that I tried to keep this matter free of personal attacks and have never even attacked your ideas but have spent most of the time refuting your assumptions while clarifying my one statement which has not received a lot of analysis by you. Opinions aside if I have left something unanswered or clearly have been mistaken I will gladly concede when its clearly pointed out.

    Summery

    Pen writes an informative article on why Chinese is Romanized the way it is. He uses Peking as an example of a Mandarin word that sounds different than its spelled and list the reason.

    Chainpunch contends that the word is written that way more because of how it sounded when transcribed rather than sloppy Romanization.

    Exhibit A: An article Pen often ridicules and claims that chainpunch does not understand. Chainpunch uses the article because it gives 3 reasons why the Beijing/ Peking. Pen claims the article does not intimate pronunciation but rather Romanization. To the contrary of Pen’s claim the chosen text clearly states the opposite.

    We should not imagine that all of the citizens of China pronounce the two tetragraphs that make up the name of the Chinese capital in the same manner. Instead, we find people from Canton saying Pakking, people from Meihsien saying Petkin, people from Amoy saying Pokking, people from Swatow saying Pakkiii, people from Fuchow saying Pceyqking, and people from Shanghai and Suchow saying Paqchin. It is curious that all of these pronunciations resemble our Peking more than they do MSM Beijing. In truth, this is no mere accident or manifestation of backward vulgarity. It is due, on the contrary, to a pattern of linguistic evolution that can be described and dated fairly accurately.
    http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp019_peking_beijing.pdf


    Quote Originally Posted by Pen View Post
    The central point that you continuously fail to understand is that in romanization/transcription of a foreign language into the Roman alphabet, those are symbols that don't neccesarily have the same sound as they do in English, ...... This is why you don't understand your own source, that article that you continually love to cite.Its not saying that pe in peking is pronounced like the English word "pay", its saying that its pronounced like the English word "bay". Not surprising, since W-G and pinyin both represent the sounds of Mandarin. ..... something else that seems confusing for you.


    Exhibit B: a second article claiming similar dated march 2004 to counter Pens assertion that the first article is dated.

    To summarize, the variation in the form of the name of the capital of China arises from three different sources:
    · different underlying names
    · different pronounciations in different dialects of Chinese
    · different romanizations of the same pronounciation of the same name
    The combinations that you are likely to run into are the following:
    Beijing is what you get if you use the Pinyin romanization for the Mandarin pronounciation of the current official name.
    Peking is what you get if you use the old postal system romanization, which was based either on the pronounciation in a Southern dialect or an archaic pronounciation in Mandarin of the current official name.
    http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000583.html

    Exhibit C: A third source to disprove fluke.
    These same expressions are used in Cantonese, pronounced differently of course, where we also find , the "Beijing Language," pronounced Pak-king-wa.
    http://www.friesian.com/yinyang.htm

    Case closed?

    Pen took the position of authority during the debate. He often misstated chainpunch’s explanations sentence by sentence for example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pen View Post
    Your theory that there were no western scholars in China prior to 1980 is pretty entertaining as well.


    Actual quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by chainpunch View Post
    Most of the world was shut out from China when pinyin was propagated and it was not until the 1980s that we had many people going over there.
    Even under full context chainpunch never asserted anything remote to Pens straw man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pen View Post
    This is quite the conspiracy theory you have going here. Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the moon landings?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pen View Post
    I'm not continuing this nonsense on here. And if you think you're learning anything from chainpull except how to embarrass yourself on the internet, then you may be beyond hope. I sincerely hope that's not the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pen View Post

    If you genuinely want my help, its there. If not, best of luck to you too.
    Pen provides many examples of argument clichés


    Quote Originally Posted by Pen View Post
    Now you're lack of knowledge is really starting to show.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pen View Post
    Ad hominem
    Saying Wade-Giles is based on Tang is absolutely insane straw man
    so where did you study Chinese and for how long? How about linguistics? Appeal to authority (Pen is a doctor and teacher of post grads, been there done that)



    Pen’s style of debate is a crafty one often leaving chainpunch defending misstatements leaving a train wreck for viewers to sort through. In my opinion Pen may be a knowledgeable person but has a comprehension problem and maybe closed minded. Its possible he took my line of questioning as hostel or he just did not clearly understand what I was writing and chose to spend his time debating side issues albeit false ones.

    It is interesting that he treats me as the village idiot while speaking to W Rabbit as if he is someone to be protected from people like me.

    Again, I have no animosity towards Pen and I continued the debate mostly to refute the misstatements while trying to inch closer towards my original contention that people have spoken the word peking and or variations well before wade-giles.

    other tidbits for serious time killers:

    http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/20...chestnuts.html English grammarblogger with his theory
    http://books.google.com/books?id=ERnrQq0bsPYC&pg=PA138&lpg=PA138&dq=canton ese+pronunciation+of+beijing&source=bl&ots=3thkfeJ H3X&sig=H7NIbh5g0bfVggEePl_TKJBCLa4&hl=en&ei=tqM9T MfzB8L38AbbrMWnBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&re snum=7&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=cantonese%20pro nunciation%20of%20beijing&f=false Chinese history
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanyu_Pinyin
    Beijing/Peking - WordReference Forums
    Somany people around the world say peking
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/23/op...edbowring.html China push 4 standardizing mandarin
    http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10/bl...-not-beij.html
    http://www.speakchinese.cn/spokenchinese.html national language history
    http://www.chinalanguage.com/content/?c=book&id=37 Qing and correct pronunciation institutes
    http://pinyin.info/news/2007/why-bei...pelled-peking/ 2007 referral to my “outdated” source
    http://wapedia.mobi/en/Talk:Beijing?t=4.#6. K in mandarin?
    http://www.biblio.com/rare-book/asia...8053~157135210 a pronunciation reference book I have
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Beijing/106283509403187 The term Peking originated with French missionaries four hundred years ago and corresponds to an older pronunciation predating a subsequent sound change in Mandarin from to”
    http://www.todaytranslations.com/our...ge-history.php
    http://nostalgia.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonese
    http://www.cjvlang.com/Writing/writchin/dial.html
    Last edited by chainpunch; 7/15/2010 9:42am at . Reason: quote block problems
  3. Pen is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2010 1:43pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: jiu/ju/kettlebells/cma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow, you're a fine one to talk about mischaracterizing someone's posts, Chainpunch, as you've been doing that to me left right and center since this started, right from the very beginning. Not to mention bringing in all sorts of strawmen of no relevance at all to what I had to say. At this point, I have serious doubts about whether you're actually reading my posts or not.

    Not sure what you're trying to attempt with your little pseudo-summary there, or why you're now referring to yourself in the third person. The whole thread is a matter of public record, people can read all of it if they so choose and form their own opinion, regardless of your spin. They can also go ahead and follow up on the various leads and simple suggestions I've made, and see for themselves.

    I'm not going to respond to anything else you have to say about this, congratulations, you get to have the last word. Keep doing the wing chun, its the perfect style for you.

    -Pen or, in Wade-Giles, P'en : )
  4. nonkinahito is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2010 9:29am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: jidokwan/bslq

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Since its all Chinese anyway, it doesn't matter how you spell it but strictly speaking, in Cantonese Yale romanisation, it'd actually be 'Hung Ga Kyun' rather than 'Hung Ga Kuen'. Not sure how it is in jyutping romanisation though.
  5. TenTigers is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2010 1:34pm


     Style: Hung Kuen, Jook Lum SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    not sure who asked (too lazy to read back and wade through all the crap..) about good resources for learning Cantonese, but..
    1)if you are in NYC, there are free (with a donation for books, etc) Cantonese and Toisanese lessons offerred bty the group at cantoneseonline.org. The classes are pretty easy. I took the cantonese 101 which was held at the school near Elenor Roosevelt Park (near the bridge on Christie St) on Saturdays at 2pm(?)
    You can also check out the Pimsleur series-very good and much cheaper than Rosetta Stone. Very conversational, and they overlap the lessons, always reviewing.
    My Cantonese is wierd, because I learned alot from friends, hanging out in Chinatown, and from Pimsleur, and from my friend who was educated in Hong Kong, so my accent is partly Hong Kong, sometimes Guangzhao, and alot of NY Chinatown street accent.
    I guess if it were English it would sound like ,"Greetings, I am from Nu Yawk!"
    (it irks my HK friend-"Ai-Ya! You sound like a Chinatown gangster!"
    A word of caution; the classes are now using this new "accepted" romanization, which is like the pinyin version of Cantonese-ugh! very different than the Yale type romanization we're accustomed to.
    Funny thing about pinyin. I try to bite back when I hear people say, "I study Bagua ZANG!" (really? How come you can't fukin pronounce it?)
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