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  1. W. Rabbit is offline
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    insight combined with intel, fuse, and dynamite

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2010 4:41am

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    Minor point of order...Canto vs Mandarin

    Quote Originally Posted by Dactyl View Post
    I went and saw The Last Airbender today. I am not a student of Chinese Martial Arts but I know that the 4 styles in the movie are based on 4 real styles of CMA (Earth= Hung Gar, Fire= Northern Shaolin Kung Fu, Water= Tai Chi, and Air= Ba Gua) I was wondering if these were accurate portrayals of these styles.
    Minor point of order...

    "Hung Gar" is really not the correct way to refer to Hung Ga Kuen. I will probably get beat on for this but there should really not be an "r" on the word "ga" which means "family", the "r" is included in a lot of places (even some books talking about Hung) because of how it is pronounced.

    When spelling the style just use "Hung", "Hung Ga" or the full formal name "Hung Ga Kuen" (Hung Family Fist).

    Cheers

    Edit: This goes for all five southern family styles: Hung Ga, Lau Ga, Choi Ga, Lei Ga, and Mok Ga.
  2. money is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/10/2010 10:17pm

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  3. Pen is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2010 11:00pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Minor point of order...

    "Hung Gar" is really not the correct way to refer to Hung Ga Kuen. I will probably get beat on for this but there should really not be an "r" on the word "ga" which means "family", the "r" is included in a lot of places (even some books talking about Hung) because of how it is pronounced.

    When spelling the style just use "Hung", "Hung Ga" or the full formal name "Hung Ga Kuen" (Hung Family Fist).

    Cheers

    Edit: This goes for all five southern family styles: Hung Ga, Lau Ga, Choi Ga, Lei Ga, and Mok Ga.
    Minor point of order, but actually you're wrong. You have the pronounciation thing backwards, "ga" is actually closer to the pronounciation than "gar" (from a linguistics standpoint), the use of r has to do with reasons of romanization and linguistics. Cantonese, unfortunately, is not nearly as standardized in its romanization as Mandarin is, especially in the cma community (sigh), but in both of the two major systems, that character is romanized 'gar'.

    I think I can guess why you prefer that spelling; your sigung, sifu, and association spell it that way. But that doesn't change the language, not to mention, if you're going to insist that gar is the wrong romanization, you'll have to explain it to Bucksam Kong, YC Wong, and just about every other Hung Kuen practitioner out there, since our sigung is the only one I've ever seen use ga. For whatever reason, the Jow Ga folks usually use Ga instead of Gar (I get the impression that most of the Jow Ga folks in the east US at least come from the Dean Chin lineage, maybe that's why); go figure.

    Also, Hung Ga or Hung Kuen are both much, much, much more common in Chinese sources than Hung Ga Kuen. Hung by itself to mean the style is something I've never seen in any source. Feel free to argue if you like, but based on your other posts, if you do so, I'll go ahead and ask you now to state where you studied Cantonese, for how long, and which variation(s) of the dialect you learned.
    Last edited by Pen; 7/10/2010 11:04pm at . Reason: clarity
  4. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2010 1:37am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pen View Post
    Minor point of order, but actually you're wrong. You have the pronounciation thing backwards, "ga" is actually closer to the pronounciation than "gar" (from a linguistics standpoint), the use of r has to do with reasons of romanization and linguistics. Cantonese, unfortunately, is not nearly as standardized in its romanization as Mandarin is, especially in the cma community (sigh), but in both of the two major systems, that character is romanized 'gar'.

    I think I can guess why you prefer that spelling; your sigung, sifu, and association spell it that way. But that doesn't change the language, not to mention, if you're going to insist that gar is the wrong romanization, you'll have to explain it to Bucksam Kong, YC Wong, and just about every other Hung Kuen practitioner out there, since our sigung is the only one I've ever seen use ga. For whatever reason, the Jow Ga folks usually use Ga instead of Gar (I get the impression that most of the Jow Ga folks in the east US at least come from the Dean Chin lineage, maybe that's why); go figure.

    Also, Hung Ga or Hung Kuen are both much, much, much more common in Chinese sources than Hung Ga Kuen. Hung by itself to mean the style is something I've never seen in any source. Feel free to argue if you like, but based on your other posts, if you do so, I'll go ahead and ask you now to state where you studied Cantonese, for how long, and which variation(s) of the dialect you learned.
    Do you mean "ga" is how it should be pronounced, and "gar" is how it should be spelled?
  5. money is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2010 1:50am

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    Now I understand why your **** gets dumped to trollshido.
  6. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2010 1:57am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Money View Post
    Now I understand why your **** gets dumped to trollshido.
    It was an honest question I was obviously confused. It's a thread about airbending.
  7. chainpunch is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2010 10:22am

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    It was an honest question I was obviously confused. It's a thread about airbending.

    Yeah.... and so why did you have to correct something irrelevant you don’t know enough about? When by standards use the incorrect spelling why don’t you start with the Chinese masters that use the incorrect spelling? Go and tell them their dialect is wrong and there should be only one dialect of "yue".

    A bit more on topic.... I think the movie is made purely for kids and is another example of wushu'in the Chinese arts into performance dance
    .
  8. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2010 10:50am

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    Quote Originally Posted by chainpunch View Post
    Yeah.... and so why did you have to correct something irrelevant you donít know enough about? When by standards use the incorrect spelling why donít you start with the Chinese masters that use the incorrect spelling? Go and tell them their dialect is wrong and there should be only one dialect of "yue".

    A bit more on topic.... I think the movie is made purely for kids and is another example of wushu'in the Chinese arts into performance dance
    .
    I had been corrected on the pronunciation before by several hung ga folks, so I was trying to be helpful and probably shouldn't have.

    Back OT: A lot of my younger family have asked about training and trying to explain real gong fu training to them is impossible (ie they still think gong fu masters can shoot hadoken fireballs with chi). When I mention "Yeah I study something similar to what the Earthbenders use" they light up and then usually ask me if I can crush rocks or blow holes in mountains.
  9. Pen is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2010 10:07pm

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    On topic stuff first, then I reply to W. Rabbit below (so you all can skip if not interested).

    Thanks for posting the clips from the animated series; it looked a bit better and so many of my friends like it, I'll probably check out at least some of it, esp. since I can watch it on netflix online. Still thought the movie was mediocre, and as far as the martial arts in the animated clip, it was better, but I still wasn't blown away. Watching the clips of Sifu Kisu, I thought his body mechanics looked exactly the same in all 4 styles, which is not a good thing in this case, imho. Would have thought he was a Wing Lam student, but apparently not from his website (why does he spell it "shaoliM" by the way?). I'm pretty sure I was at one of the events one of the photos was taken at, so I might have met him, but no real recollection either way. I like the basic storyline idea, so hopefully the animated series will be more fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    I had been corrected on the pronunciation before by several hung ga folks, so I was trying to be helpful and probably shouldn't have.
    .
    Ok, let's kick it up a scholarly notch or two. One reply here, and then if you want to talk more we should take it offline, or at least to the CMA forum, because we're derailing this thread, and going into matters that have less and less to do with martial arts.

    Its a misnomer to talk about "spelling" Chinese terms, because Chinese is not written with an alphabet or syllabary (unlike Korean or (sometimes) Japanese, for instance). We can only talk about romanization (the term I use in my original post), which is the specific process of rendering the sounds of another language in the Roman alphabet (that's the one we use, just to be clear; I'm not calling it the "English" alphabet because a) that's incorrect and b) its used by other languages, such as French, Italian, Spanish, Vietnamese, etc., hence we never speak about the "romanization" of those languages, even if they pronounce some of the letters differently than we do).

    Romanization is something that is created by scholars and linguists, based not only on how the language using the Roman alphabet works, but on how the native language works, and general principles of universal linguistics, and phonetics. So you sometimes get things that look odd in English, and that's ok. E.g., in this thread we've mentioned a certain CMA that involves a lot of circle walking. There are 2 main systems of Romanization for Mandarin Chinese, Wade-Giles (considered fairly outdated by most now, but sometimes still seen, esp. in some martial arts books etc, and in some scholarly works, esp slightly older ones) and pin yin. The capital of China is romanized as Pe King in Wade-Giles and Bei Jing in pin yin. Note that these are PRONOUNCED EXACTLY THE SAME and represent EXACTLY THE SAME Chinese characters.

    Now, back to that circle-walking CMA. In Wade-Giles it's romanized pa kua chang, in pin yin its ba gua zhang (note for sinologists, I'm using spaces on everything to make the comarisons easier to read). "Chang"/"Zhang" are both pronounced with an initial "J" sound, not "Ch" as in chair, or "zh" as in...hell, no good example in English, let's use "Dr. Zhivago". So why isn't it spelled with a "J" in either system if that's how it sounds? If you want the in-depth explanation, let me know and I'll provide it elsewhere instead of continuing to clutter up this thread, but the short version is because of the phonetic rules of Chinese, the vowels affect how the consonant is represented, and there's also a subtle differentiation of sounds that we don't make in English. Since you've mentioned some interest in Irish/Gaelic, its not dissimilar to the use of broad and slender vowels in that language, and how that changes spelling (in the so-called modern/reformed system).

    Point is, these systems are decided on by folks who know what they're doing because they've devoted their whole lives to it. It behooves us, esp in Chinese martial arts, to try to use their **** because a) it really ain't that complicated, and unlike English its absolutely consistent once you know the rules and b) if you ever want to compare terms from one style to another, or look up a term, or learn the Chinese character for it, or do any kind of real research into Chinese martial arts (and I've done a bit), people fucking up the romanization will rapidly drive you insane. This is especially true for Chinese, where each character represents only one syllable, and even with tone markers (not that anyone on this forum ever uses them, and don't even get me started on THAT issue with Cantonese) there are still an enormous number of synonyms for most phonemes.

    So, if you haven't studied the specific dialect of Chinese you're talking about, can't site a specific system of romanization you're using (e.g. Wade-Giles, pin yin, or hell even old SooChow postal for Mandarin) but are just going by "my Sifu says so" (never a bullshido or scholarly favorite), then you should not say anything, because you will be speaking out of your ass, and not your mouth. Our mouths are pretty close to our brain, and look at how often we still manage to **** things up; when we speak out of our ass, which is an enormous distance from our brain in comparison, with much more stuff in the way, its much much worse.

    W. Rabbit, please realize that I'm being a bit tongue in cheek (both figuratively and literally) with the above, and don't take offense. But I've spent my entire academic career, undergrad and grad, and working life in Chinese studies or things that are a subset of it in one way or another, and my background is Chinese martial arts, mostly Hung Kuen, which I still practice, although its not my main focus anymore. So these things are really important to me. I think you're ultimately a good guy who will have a lot to contribute to the forum, and heaven knows I want more CMA people that don't believe forms and dim mak make them 'teh deadly' on this forum. But with all due respect, you need to ease up on talking about things you don't actually know much about (e.g. zen, and how to 'spell' Cantonese words).By all means follow the spelling your sifu/association uses when you talk about your own stuff, I've used the same spelling sometimes for the same kinds of reasons (e.g. when I had a school, and wanted to make the connection with others of my particular lineage clear); and native Chinese speaking Sifu, esp those with limited English skills, have the right to do what they want (although its still much better to use a standard), but it doesn't mean we should copy our teachers blindly instead of working to improve, just like everything else in martial arts. You've got a lot of great enthusiasm, just channel it a little better dude.
  10. chainpunch is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2010 10:18pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pen View Post
    On topic stuff first, then I reply to W. Rabbit below (so you all can skip if not interested).

    Thanks for posting the clips from the animated series; it looked a bit better and so many of my friends like it, I'll probably check out at least some of it, esp. since I can watch it on netflix online. Still thought the movie was mediocre, and as far as the martial arts in the animated clip, it was better, but I still wasn't blown away. Watching the clips of Sifu Kisu, I thought his body mechanics looked exactly the same in all 4 styles, which is not a good thing in this case, imho. Would have thought he was a Wing Lam student, but apparently not from his website (why does he spell it "shaoliM" by the way?). I'm pretty sure I was at one of the events one of the photos was taken at, so I might have met him, but no real recollection either way. I like the basic storyline idea, so hopefully the animated series will be more fun.



    Ok, let's kick it up a scholarly notch or two. One reply here, and then if you want to talk more we should take it offline, or at least to the CMA forum, because we're derailing this thread, and going into matters that have less and less to do with martial arts.

    Its a misnomer to talk about "spelling" Chinese terms, because Chinese is not written with an alphabet or syllabary (unlike Korean or (sometimes) Japanese, for instance). We can only talk about romanization (the term I use in my original post), which is the specific process of rendering the sounds of another language in the Roman alphabet (that's the one we use, just to be clear; I'm not calling it the "English" alphabet because a) that's incorrect and b) its used by other languages, such as French, Italian, Spanish, Vietnamese, etc., hence we never speak about the "romanization" of those languages, even if they pronounce some of the letters differently than we do).

    Romanization is something that is created by scholars and linguists, based not only on how the language using the Roman alphabet works, but on how the native language works, and general principles of universal linguistics, and phonetics. So you sometimes get things that look odd in English, and that's ok. E.g., in this thread we've mentioned a certain CMA that involves a lot of circle walking. There are 2 main systems of Romanization for Mandarin Chinese, Wade-Giles (considered fairly outdated by most now, but sometimes still seen, esp. in some martial arts books etc, and in some scholarly works, esp slightly older ones) and pin yin. The capital of China is romanized as Pe King in Wade-Giles and Bei Jing in pin yin. Note that these are PRONOUNCED EXACTLY THE SAME and represent EXACTLY THE SAME Chinese characters.

    Now, back to that circle-walking CMA. In Wade-Giles it's romanized pa kua chang, in pin yin its ba gua zhang (note for sinologists, I'm using spaces on everything to make the comarisons easier to read). "Chang"/"Zhang" are both pronounced with an initial "J" sound, not "Ch" as in chair, or "zh" as in...hell, no good example in English, let's use "Dr. Zhivago". So why isn't it spelled with a "J" in either system if that's how it sounds? If you want the in-depth explanation, let me know and I'll provide it elsewhere instead of continuing to clutter up this thread, but the short version is because of the phonetic rules of Chinese, the vowels affect how the consonant is represented, and there's also a subtle differentiation of sounds that we don't make in English. Since you've mentioned some interest in Irish/Gaelic, its not dissimilar to the use of broad and slender vowels in that language, and how that changes spelling (in the so-called modern/reformed system).

    Point is, these systems are decided on by folks who know what they're doing because they've devoted their whole lives to it. It behooves us, esp in Chinese martial arts, to try to use their **** because a) it really ain't that complicated, and unlike English its absolutely consistent once you know the rules and b) if you ever want to compare terms from one style to another, or look up a term, or learn the Chinese character for it, or do any kind of real research into Chinese martial arts (and I've done a bit), people fucking up the romanization will rapidly drive you insane. This is especially true for Chinese, where each character represents only one syllable, and even with tone markers (not that anyone on this forum ever uses them, and don't even get me started on THAT issue with Cantonese) there are still an enormous number of synonyms for most phonemes.

    So, if you haven't studied the specific dialect of Chinese you're talking about, can't site a specific system of romanization you're using (e.g. Wade-Giles, pin yin, or hell even old SooChow postal for Mandarin) but are just going by "my Sifu says so" (never a bullshido or scholarly favorite), then you should not say anything, because you will be speaking out of your ass, and not your mouth. Our mouths are pretty close to our brain, and look at how often we still manage to **** things up; when we speak out of our ass, which is an enormous distance from our brain in comparison, with much more stuff in the way, its much much worse.

    W. Rabbit, please realize that I'm being a bit tongue in cheek (both figuratively and literally) with the above, and don't take offense. But I've spent my entire academic career, undergrad and grad, and working life in Chinese studies or things that are a subset of it in one way or another, and my background is Chinese martial arts, mostly Hung Kuen, which I still practice, although its not my main focus anymore. So these things are really important to me. I think you're ultimately a good guy who will have a lot to contribute to the forum, and heaven knows I want more CMA people that don't believe forms and dim mak make them 'teh deadly' on this forum. But with all due respect, you need to ease up on talking about things you don't actually know much about (e.g. zen, and how to 'spell' Cantonese words).By all means follow the spelling your sifu/association uses when you talk about your own stuff, I've used the same spelling sometimes for the same kinds of reasons (e.g. when I had a school, and wanted to make the connection with others of my particular lineage clear); and native Chinese speaking Sifu, esp those with limited English skills, have the right to do what they want (although its still much better to use a standard), but it doesn't mean we should copy our teachers blindly instead of working to improve, just like everything else in martial arts. You've got a lot of great enthusiasm, just channel it a little better dude.

    Nice esay except that the language is Cantonese not Mandarin.
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