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  1. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 8:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    That doesn't reward good jiujitsu.
    this.
  2. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 9:14pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by henno View Post
    The ref has a blue wrist band to designate "the guy in the black pants". I thought referring to him as blue was more succinct than saying "the guy in the black pants".

    Again, to get points for passing the guard, YOU HAVE TO PASS THE GUARD. If I take you down and land in side control, I don't get any points just for being in side control. I only get 2 points for the take down.

    The original poster asked how is it possible to get no points for being in side control. This fight was one way. Stuff his throw attempt and land in top of turtle position (turtle is not a guard - you don't get sweep points from turtle). Move from turtle to side - again NO GUARD PASS, NO PASS POINTS. You do have an advantage though; superior position - so now do something with it and win the fight, not hold on for dear life.

    He got a big advantage from successfully stuffing the take down, that is he got to top of turtle and then to side. He doesn't get three points as well for passing the guard because he did not pass his guard.
    So apparently you didn't read everything I posted.


    *idiot.
  3. henno is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 10:38pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless View Post
    His points should've been given as a reversal/sweep or throw. Doubt me? Watch their knees come off the ground.
    We'll? What is it? A sweep or a throw?

    Now you've called me an idiot I have to respond.

    F-) THE SWEEP: is when the athlete that is underneath has his opponent in his guard(in between his legs ) or the half guard (having one of his adversary’s legs between his) and is able to get on top of his adversary by inverting his position. 2 POINTS.
    Observation 1: it will not be considered a sweep if the move does not begin from inside the guard or half guard.
    Observation 2: When the athlete sweeping advances his position to the back of his opponent during the attempted sweep, he is awarded 2 points.
    Observation 3: If starting in a guard position, an athlete attempts a sweep and both athletes return to their feet and the competitor attempting the sweep executes a takedown remaining on top, he will be awarded 2 points.


    Clearly there was no guard, so how is it a sweep?

    A-) TAKE DOWNS: Any kind of knocking down the opponent or being taken down on his back side, 2 points. If the athlete is thrown to the ground and does not land on his back, the thrower must pin him to the ground in the same position for at least 3 seconds to gain the points of the take down.
    Observation 1: the take down that lands outside of the fighting area and on to the security area will be valid as long as the athlete that applied it stood with both feet in the fighting area while making the take down.
    Observation 2: If the athlete has one of his knees on the ground and is taken down, whoever applied the take down will be awarded 2 points as long as he has both his feet on the ground. If the athlete has both his knees on the ground and is knocked down the standing athlete will have to pass to his side and maintain this position to receive an advantage.
    Observation 3: When the athlete attempts the double leg and the opponent sits on the floor and executes a sweep, the athlete who attempted the takedown will not receive points, but the one who executed the sweep will.
    Observation 4: When a competitor throws his opponent and ends up in a bottomposition the competitor throwing will receive 2 points and the opponent on top will receive an advantage. If the competitor executing the throw lands in his opponents guard and is swept, both will receive 2 points

    Look at observation 2 - Blue clearly has both knees on the ground when the "takedown" is initiated (turtle position) - According to the rules it's advantage only, no points.

    As for advantages, blue should have had a number for near take downs

    V- ADVANTAGES: It is considered an advantage when the athlete attempts but does not complete any of the fundamental moves of the fight; i.e. sweep, take down, submission etc.;
    Advantages through takedowns: When there is a visible loss of balance in which the adversary nearly completes the takedown. A visible loss of balance durring an attempted throw will also result in an advantage.
  4. sambosteve is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 10:45pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    Was looking at the No-Gi scoring, it's 3 points in Gi.
    You're looking at "passing the guard" as requiring that one become trapped in the guard first. That doesn't reward good jiujitsu. Getting to side control by turning someone over from turtle and taking side control directly is good jiujitsu and is as much "passing the guard" as doing a cartwheel over someones butterfly guard is.
    Agreed. That was why I commented on the problematic nature of scoring "passes" as opposed to "positions"
  5. henno is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 10:58pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    Was looking at the No-Gi scoring, it's 3 points in Gi.
    You're looking at "passing the guard" as requiring that one become trapped in the guard first. That doesn't reward good jiujitsu. Getting to side control by turning someone over from turtle and taking side control directly is good jiujitsu and is as much "passing the guard" as doing a cartwheel over someones butterfly guard is.

    The only reason white got to the top of turtle with a chance to move to side control was because he managed to defend a series of blue's attacks. Hardly what I would call "good Jiu Jitsu". More like super defensive Jiu Jitsu.

    I think moving from top turtle to side control is a lateral move at best. If he had really attacked the back when he had a good chance and got his hooks in, he would have 4 points and be in a great position to finish.

    I can't understand all the support for a guy who does nothing but have a reactive game to an aggressive player. Blue may not have succeeded with his take down attempts, but it takes balls to go for a turning style throw in a BJJ comp. It has a high risk/reward, but props to blue for having a crack.

    I'm probably coming down on white because I have a bit of this attitude in Judo class. I've got pretty decent base and tend to stuff their take downs to set up my own. While this works pretty well for me, I'm trying to develop a more attacking game from the feet and take the initiative. I think it is a more noble approach.
  6. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 11:13pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by henno View Post
    We'll? What is it? A sweep or a throw?

    Now you've called me an idiot I have to respond.

    F-) THE SWEEP: is when the athlete that is underneath has his opponent in his guard(in between his legs ) or the half guard (having one of his adversary’s legs between his) and is able to get on top of his adversary by inverting his position. 2 POINTS.
    Observation 1: it will not be considered a sweep if the move does not begin from inside the guard or half guard.
    Observation 2: When the athlete sweeping advances his position to the back of his opponent during the attempted sweep, he is awarded 2 points.
    Observation 3: If starting in a guard position, an athlete attempts a sweep and both athletes return to their feet and the competitor attempting the sweep executes a takedown remaining on top, he will be awarded 2 points.


    Clearly there was no guard, so how is it a sweep?

    A-) TAKE DOWNS: Any kind of knocking down the opponent or being taken down on his back side, 2 points. If the athlete is thrown to the ground and does not land on his back, the thrower must pin him to the ground in the same position for at least 3 seconds to gain the points of the take down.
    Observation 1: the take down that lands outside of the fighting area and on to the security area will be valid as long as the athlete that applied it stood with both feet in the fighting area while making the take down.
    Observation 2: If the athlete has one of his knees on the ground and is taken down, whoever applied the take down will be awarded 2 points as long as he has both his feet on the ground. If the athlete has both his knees on the ground and is knocked down the standing athlete will have to pass to his side and maintain this position to receive an advantage.
    Observation 3: When the athlete attempts the double leg and the opponent sits on the floor and executes a sweep, the athlete who attempted the takedown will not receive points, but the one who executed the sweep will.
    Observation 4: When a competitor throws his opponent and ends up in a bottomposition the competitor throwing will receive 2 points and the opponent on top will receive an advantage. If the competitor executing the throw lands in his opponents guard and is swept, both will receive 2 points

    Look at observation 2 - Blue clearly has both knees on the ground when the "takedown" is initiated (turtle position) - According to the rules it's advantage only, no points.

    As for advantages, blue should have had a number for near take downs

    V- ADVANTAGES: It is considered an advantage when the athlete attempts but does not complete any of the fundamental moves of the fight; i.e. sweep, take down, submission etc.;
    Advantages through takedowns: When there is a visible loss of balance in which the adversary nearly completes the takedown. A visible loss of balance durring an attempted throw will also result in an advantage.
    1. I'm talking about my original post where I addressed this.
    2. I used an all encompassing group: depending upon who you ask is how I define it; I define it as a throw I've heard some call it a sweep. I was trying to avoid that particular part of the argument but alas you had to go there.
    3. This:
    Observation 2: If the athlete has one of his knees on the ground and is taken down, whoever applied the take down will be awarded 2 points as long as he has both his feet on the ground. If the athlete has both his knees on the ground and is knocked down the standing athlete will have to pass to his side and maintain this position to receive an advantage.
    If you go back and actually read my original post then we can get to a point where we can have a different pov rather than a point of you trying to argue points I've already fucking brought up.
  7. henno is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 11:41pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless View Post
    The ref was an idiot and allowed himself to get bullied by the other coach. The argument was that there was no take down, guard was not passed and you went from a back transition to top side control position. In other words you haven't moved from a lower position to a higher position. Complete bullshit on any count. Ref should be reprimanded but I realize that Naga officials aren't that professional.
    Ok, so back to your original quote.

    The ref held up three figures. The only move worth three points is a guard pass. Blue's coach correctly pointed out that there was no guard pass (good and correct cornering). It is not bullying to point out a real error. The ref realizes his error and reverses the points. I'd be happy to have someone who knows the rules like that in my corner. I'd also like a ref to reverse, when he realizes an error (very rare in my experience).

    I've already established that there was no sweep (no one in guard) and the take down from both knees is only worth an advantage.

    If every ref was shot for missing an advantage you would have no refs after the first couple of fights.
  8. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 11:51pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes but two things. One, if he had advantage why was he not given the match at the end of the match? Two, last time I checked that was still a take down. Points should still be awarded. I could see the match going either way but I don't think that the points should have been completely rescinded.
  9. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2010 1:09am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I saw the transition in question as a attacking turtle to side control transition, which should be awarded 2 points for a takedown, not 3 for a guard pass. Any attacking turtle position where you turn them over into side control is a takedown.

    The funny thing was the other guy's coach said it shouldn't be a guard pass, just an advantage. That coach should have reminded the ref his guy lost by advantage.

    Oh, and another pet peeve. I don't care if you have a Brazilian accent or not, STFU when you're coaching your guy. Ref should have given him a yellow card and charged him 2 points ;) (I know, wrong sport).
  10. henno is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2010 1:17am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless View Post
    Yes but two things. One, if he had advantage why was he not given the match at the end of the match? Two, last time I checked that was still a take down. Points should still be awarded. I could see the match going either way but I don't think that the points should have been completely rescinded.

    Then check again. I just took that off the IBJJF website - takedown off both knees just an advantage.

    I said it before, but I'll say it again:

    V- ADVANTAGES: It is considered an advantage when the athlete attempts but does not complete any of the fundamental moves of the fight; i.e. sweep, take down, submission etc.;
    • Advantages through takedowns: When there is a visible loss of balance in which the adversary nearly completes the takedown. A visible loss of balance durring an attempted throw will also result in an advantage

    On this basis, if the ref had given advantages for near takedowns, blue would have won by a number of advantages.
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