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  1. Oak is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2010 9:36pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That was a horrible decision. I really feel sorry for your friend.
  2. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2010 10:01pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So far it has motivated him to be more active in the clinch and when standing, and to be more aggressive about improving his position. So I think it will make him better in the long run.
  3. henno is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 7:09am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You have to be in guard to pass guard (and therefore be awarded pass points).

    If you takedown straight to side control, you only get 2 points for the take down. You do not get points for passing guard, because you were never in guard. If you take down and get straight to mount, you get 2 for take down and 4 for mount.

    White was completely defensive on the feet and was constantly defending push/pull and take down attempts from blue. White only managed to get side control after successfully defending a take down. Blue feared having back taken so turtled. White sort of attempted a back take (unsuccessfully) but did manage to establish side control - no guard and no pass therefore no points. However this is a dominant position for white and good place to go on and win the fight, however.......

    From this dominant position white made no significant attempt at any submissions or to move to a more dominant position (back/mount) which would have given points. White simply seemed happy to stall and try (unsuccessfully) to hold side control.

    Blue was generally the aggressor while white only got side control off a defensive move to blue takedown attempt. While many refs may have given it to white for getting to side control (even if it was off a completely defensive attitude), I don't think white should feel too ripped off losing a fight where he made zero attacks when his opponent made many.
  4. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 8:04am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Henno: Any chance you'd like to let us know your background? I've got long time jits guys, coaches, etc... disagreeing with you.

    Based on the rules moving from a Neutral position (Standing) to a superior position (Side Control Top) should give you 2 points.
    Are you telling me that if I want to avoid giving up points that a reasonable strategy would be to dive at someones legs, turtle, then roll under them to the bottom of side control?
  5. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 11:54am

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    Henno: Any chance you'd like to let us know your background? I've got long time jits guys, coaches, etc... disagreeing with you.

    Based on the rules moving from a Neutral position (Standing) to a superior position (Side Control Top) should give you 2 points.
    Are you telling me that if I want to avoid giving up points that a reasonable strategy would be to dive at someones legs, turtle, then roll under them to the bottom of side control?
    Actually no, this is what I said above. I believe he should have been given the points for side control but the mentality was that he went down in position back to side. Except for the fact he never truly had back control. The argument could be argued with both sides. The ref gave the good points and allowed his judgment to be swayed. Complete bullshit. His points should've been given as a reversal/sweep or throw. Doubt me? Watch their knees come off the ground.

    If there had been a full throw for the guy in the black pants (I have no idea where you're getting blue and white on this) we would be talking a different story (obviously). Black pants tried to get away, he was stuffed, take down for white pants. 3 point for side control.
  6. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 12:13pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yah, if he didn't get back control points then he can't have been moving down the positional ladder from back to side.
  7. henno is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 7:54pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless View Post

    If there had been a full throw for the guy in the black pants (I have no idea where you're getting blue and white on this)
    The ref has a blue wrist band to designate "the guy in the black pants". I thought referring to him as blue was more succinct than saying "the guy in the black pants".

    Again, to get points for passing the guard, YOU HAVE TO PASS THE GUARD. If I take you down and land in side control, I don't get any points just for being in side control. I only get 2 points for the take down.

    The original poster asked how is it possible to get no points for being in side control. This fight was one way. Stuff his throw attempt and land in top of turtle position (turtle is not a guard - you don't get sweep points from turtle). Move from turtle to side - again NO GUARD PASS, NO PASS POINTS. You do have an advantage though; superior position - so now do something with it and win the fight, not hold on for dear life.

    He got a big advantage from successfully stuffing the take down, that is he got to top of turtle and then to side. He doesn't get three points as well for passing the guard because he did not pass his guard.
  8. henno is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 8:06pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    Based on the rules moving from a Neutral position (Standing) to a superior position (Side Control Top) should give you 2 points.
    2 points? Please explain?

    I'm a four stripe blue.
  9. Kintanon is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 8:39pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Was looking at the No-Gi scoring, it's 3 points in Gi.
    You're looking at "passing the guard" as requiring that one become trapped in the guard first. That doesn't reward good jiujitsu. Getting to side control by turning someone over from turtle and taking side control directly is good jiujitsu and is as much "passing the guard" as doing a cartwheel over someones butterfly guard is.
  10. danno is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2010 8:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    Henno: Any chance you'd like to let us know your background? I've got long time jits guys, coaches, etc... disagreeing with you.
    i can vouch that henno is a very good blue belt with a fair bit of competition experience, and i wouldn't be surprised if he knew more about the intricacies of the rules than me. i've not bothered to analyse the rules of competition very closely, it's not so important to me. if i don't submit my opponent, i'm prepared for whatever the decision happens to be. not great if you want to win tournaments, but that's not the reason i do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    Based on the rules moving from a Neutral position (Standing) to a superior position (Side Control Top) should give you 2 points.
    Are you telling me that if I want to avoid giving up points that a reasonable strategy would be to dive at someones legs, turtle, then roll under them to the bottom of side control?
    that's the problem i have with the idea. you could possibly pull someone on top of you and the score is still essentially even. i really don't like that. i always thought that if you get a position, you get points for it. i could easily be wrong.
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