Martial Arts Forms their true purpose?

[Dsimon3387]

Here here.

I don't know if literacy helps though...that would be saying that reading is a good way to learn a martial art. Even watching two dimensional DVDs is not the same thing as learning a physical form set and having those techniques corrected in person by someone who knows the intricacies of the form so that when used they actually do something useful as opposed to utterly fail.

that would be the other side of the coin... I do think that the efficiency of kata is remarkable.. it is the same argument that Fingarette uses to discuss Confucian ritual sense. As social animals humans have evolved a lot farther than any other way and it sort of goes to follow that kata is an outgrowth of that and is accordingly very efficient for transmitting the art totally.

I guess what it cannot really do is take each sense of application and appeal to it independently. But that is not after all what it was designed for. That would be the mistake people make though.

[dwkfym]

Seriously, this discussion is so old.
I see Kata helping you learn some footwork and body positioning
I see Kata being a great way to preserve techniques and motions through history
(Diesel put it very well)
I see Kata being good at teaching you to keep your knees bent (which is pretty damn basic)

Thats it. Seriously.

Either way, its fucking moot. Katas can be fun and look really nice. If you wanna keep training Katas thats fine. We have video cameras now and there is absolutely nothing in terms of fight training we are losing out on from not doing Kata after your first 3 monhts of training. discussion end. ARGH!!

[W. Rabbit]

Oh, but how does one KNOW this move is a block (there are no blocks) or a strike as opposed to a throw or a lock? Kungfu makes you stupid:new_infin.

no you didn't....no you didn't....

it's all because how something looks in form and what it's used for are often different things and not something a casual viewer would notice, not because they are "teh secret deadly hidden technique" but just because looking at them in forms is out of context.

[FriendlyFire]

W. Rabbit, if the guy was actually taught the moves, forms would not help him remember them later on. If he would forget the individual punch technique, he would forget the sequences and techniques in a form.

Dsimon, here we hit a wall. I am of the camp that essentially there is a best way of doing every technique. There is a best way to punch, kick, throw. That arts that train with aliveness develop almost identical technique, and 'style' is a function of the fighter himself; what techniques he learned, what techniques he likes to use. So the idea of having your own 'art' and passing it is silly to me. Subtle intangibles are worked out in sparring, not passed on through kata. I treat fighting as a science, you treat it as an almost mystical art form with deep importance in its history.

Edit: Great god damn point on video cameras, and holy **** this thread is moving so fast...

[Dsimon3387]

Oh, but how does one KNOW this move is a block (there are no blocks) or a strike as opposed to a throw or a lock? Kungfu makes you stupid:new_infin.

can I hijack this post in the name of seriousness!!?

Here is my own opinion and one that might legitimately (as opposed to the illegitimate argument about this thread being a dead horse cause it is about forms) piss off a few posters.

I believe that kata can reveal things to people. Thats right... You can take the movements and designs in a form and play with them and develop (HInka as it is called in the Booj) a capacity to understand applications and ideas that never would have occured to you before. I believe that a really gifted teacher could conceviably make it so that there are things that can be revealed to the practicioner as he becomes familiar with the art.


These are not necessarily hidden applications either. they are things like efficiency of movement, techniqes that are part of the form that one can see after using the technique, ect. Kata is revealing. Yu are playing with a similar set of movements as some one did way before your days and both of you will get similar and different revelations out of the forms.

[W. Rabbit]

W. Rabbit, if the guy was actually taught the moves, forms would not help him remember them later on. If he would forget the individual punch technique, he would forget the sequences and techniques in a form.
.

The funny thing is I haven't trained in Shotokan Karate in 25 years but I can still remember many techniques, not because of kumite but because I did the kata.

So you see? I threw the karate kata away in the end too (I stopped training), but look at how what that kata taught stayed with me decades later.

Kata/forms are a teaching tool. You can probably throw them away after some dedicated practice (Bruce Lee's JKD philosophy espoused that right?), but that doesn't mean they're value-less to new students, and we always want new students in the martial arts. So if we want to teach the arts we've learned that are based on form sets, we need to practice them to maintain them, really, so we can pass them off to the next group of students.

[FriendlyFire]

So if we want to teach the arts we've learned that are based on form sets, we need to practice them to maintain them, really, so we can pass them off to the next group of students.

This argument in wrong, given the martial arts that do not use forms and are still passed on no problems. You could pass all the fighting techniques without the forms, and save training time. Check fucking mate.

[speedycerviche]

"But it suffers from the same problems in some ways that the "telephone" game does"

No it does not. The people learning Kata spent a long time learning them it is not like they were shown once then repeated it like the game. Also you underestimating the power of oral cultures to transmit infomation based on how you as a modern western person living in a society based on writing can do it, it is down right ignorance.

"Kano was among other things of gifted intellect.

So why did he choose to incorporate these forms Bearclaw? to what end sir?"

The end depends on the Kata most were to teach principals (Nage no Kata, Ju no Kata, Kime no Kata). Whereas some where to preserve techniques and principals (Koshiki no Kata). Some where to teach character and promote physical fitness (Seiryoku Zenyo Kokumin Taiku no Kata, Joshi Judo Gonshinho).

The problem with Karate Kata is that it does not show any semblence to how you would actually fight whereas the Judo Kata does. For example seoi nage in the Nage no Kata is preformed off a downward blow and the Tori catches the strike and blends with the energy and throws using the momentum this can be applied easily to numerous situations eg high collar grab. The Karate Kata Taikyoku Shodan has a equally sound principal block/parry a strike like mae geri move foward attack with a punch and you see this alot in Kyokushin tourneys but it is done with an uppercut or other punch not a stepping down in to zenkuashidachi(sp?) chambering one hand at the chest punch and that is the basic Kata it gets more overly complicated and further away from actuall application as you get to the more advanced Katas.

[W. Rabbit]

This argument in wrong, given the martial arts that do not use forms and are still passed on no problems. You could pass all the fighting techniques without the forms, and save training time. Check fucking mate.

Illegal move, I drink your checkmate and will continue playing.

Forms-less MA and Forms-based MA both survive because of how their lineages passed on the knowledge...it's bound to be different depending on how many students they had, how many techniques they have, etc. Some systems have many, many more techniques than others. Some don't require kata at all, but that doesn't mean that those that do don't rely heavily on their kata to "keep track of things".

The gung gi fuk fu kuen of hung ga has somewhere over 100 movements in it and it is just the learner's set, and is performed in about 2-3m. What better way is there to pass on those 100 techniques than a fast set of calisthenics you can learn in a month or two and remember forever if you practice it even once a week? As Dsimon keeps pointing out its a highly compact, and thus efficient way of sending techniques down the wire to new students.

The arts that don't rely on kata/form sets seem generally seem to contain fewer techniques (Judo is a good example I think there are a relatively small number of meat and potatoes throws and holds and you can build on that foundation) and there is no need for long kata sets. In the case of judo the art is "transmitted" via drills, 2 man forms practice, and onward to the fun stuff like randori.

[Dsimon3387]

W. Rabbit, if the guy was actually taught the moves, forms would not help him remember them later on. If he would forget the individual punch technique, he would forget the sequences and techniques in a form.

Dsimon, here we hit a wall. I am of the camp that essentially there is a best way of doing every technique. There is a best way to punch, kick, throw. That arts that train with aliveness develop almost identical technique, and 'style' is a function of the fighter himself; what techniques he learned, what techniques he likes to use. So the idea of having your own 'art' and passing it is silly to me. Subtle intangibles are worked out in sparring, not passed on through kata. I treat fighting as a science, you treat it as an almost mystical art form with deep importance in its history.

Edit: Great god damn point on video cameras, and holy **** this thread is moving so fast...

I don't think the two are exclusive. Fighters train the same way. Always did always will really. you can never train as a fighter and not fight to train.

Let me guess you don't think that the best way to punch might change? for example, with a glove, without?

That would be our difference really. I believe that things like how to best punch do sometimes change. You I am guessing do not... let me guess, fighters are the best now because they have worked things out and come to a pinnicle of evolution regarding how to deliver a punch after many moons of evolution. yes?