Martial Arts Forms their true purpose?

**Dsimon3387** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 9:50pm

Originally Posted by helmutlvx

@Dsimon3387
Could you give specific examples of said subtleties and set-ups?

Did you read that big long thread about how Machida's striking is also influenced by Muay Thai and boxing?

There is no such things as a "Goju punch" or a "Shotokan punch". There is a type of punching that starts from the hiki-te position that has become associate with the term "karate punch".

Karateka don't always punch like that.

"Might, might might" don't make right. If you're going to make absolute statements, make absolute supplmentary rebuttals.

Oh wait. You're saying Machida learned how to fight from the Shotokan kata his dad taught him.

I thought you said kata AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE USED FOR FIGHTING.

edit: Your style field is empty. What do you train in and what rank do you hold?

I didn't say how Macheda learned how to fight I used him as an example.

Example of what I am saying:

A lot of Goju guys I knew backfist vertically, in other sytles the backfist comes from the horizontal position. Goju also has certain circular blocks which are retained from Chinese sources... some of these are in forms and retained as an idoicycracy of the art.

Now more general examples:

Shotokan footwork is such that it is only linear. Okinawan karate has circular movements that are in katas such as (Nan-te? its been a while).

I am not talking about the chamber of the punch I am talking about the way a punch is used in c0mbat the set up. Originally in Shotokan sparring a lunge and reverse chambered punch were emphasized at the exclusion of other punching techniques.

well among other things I trained in Sho Rn Ryu for about 15 years or so and have a Nidan in a fighting club. Ask your teacher about Riley Hawkins as my teacher was under Riley.

Your teacher if he is in Virginia will know of Riley trust me... and then you can come bac here and ask about my other ranks if you need to know ok sweet buns?

**helmutlvx** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 10:11pm

I'm done in this thread.

I don't have the time to keep arguing so I'm not going to bother. You ducked a lot of my questions and offered up anecdotal and general examples with no outside substantiation. Each time you were corrected, it was simply not referenced anymore.

I respect the time you put into training, but I still think you're an idiot.

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if my sensei knew of Riley Hawkins since I read he's from Baltimore.

Any further posts from me will include pictures of dead horses, HYPNOTOAD, LOLcats, or some combination thereof.

**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 10:14pm

Originally Posted by helmutlvx

Just because I decided to walk into a loaded question doesn't make me ignorant.

Buying into t3h anci3nt d34dly is the more revealing sign of ignorance. Kata are created, changed, and thrown out all the time.

The human capability for error is also possible in the transmission of kata. Small changes create new "meaning" to the movements and after so many "hundreds" of years, I doubt TMAers in the modern era perform kata exactly like how they were done back then.

You are a shithead for making this thread and beating the **** out of a long dead horse. Your opinions are metaphysical New Age horseshit.

I don't think New Age mysticism and ancient physical forms have a lot in common, unless you are talking about kung fu hippies. I have met a few. And I have met very powerful gong fu artists who exhibit a SHITLOAD of power when performing forms. The difference between watching a dainty wushu form vs, a powerful set performed by a conditioned fighter is staggering.

Kata/forms are continually changed because they are an art form that masters have evolve over time. It's like evolution, the better sets/forms contain surviving techniques, dead sets/forgotten forms belong to antiquity.

Human capability for error is exactly why one studies these forms from venerable masters and not from books or DVDs.

No informed student of forms will ever claim they teach you to fight. They are however infinitely better for learning martial arts older than 100 years, since books, scrolls, cave drawings, and other **** would be absolutely worthless.

**ADM** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 10:22pm

... ahem *clears throat*

...

**** KATA!

***battlefields*** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 10:23pm

EDIT: **** this thread, W Rabbit just showed up. Have fun kids.

ADM, I'm with you.

**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 10:25pm

Originally Posted by ADM

... ahem *clears throat*

...

**** KATA!

Holy ****, is THAT what he says here??:

YouTube- **** Canada

**ADM** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 10:29pm

Kata is almost a complete waste of time. Honestly, that line is not even CLOSE to harsh enough.

All this bullshit talk you're sprouting about being evolved over time, is complete and utter RUBBISH! If they were evolving they would have gotten rid of it all together and added more bag work.

I also said 'almost' complete waste of time because you can get a work out from it if you hit (the air) hard, etc. You can gain balance and control over your techniques. The problem lays with the fact that you can do all those things BETTER without Kata.

**FriendlyFire** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 10:34pm

Originally Posted by ADM

I also said 'almost' complete waste of time because you can get a work out from it if you hit (the air) hard, etc. You can gain balance and control over your techniques. The problem lays with the fact that you can do all those things BETTER without Kata.

I thought the problem was kata techniques were mostly ridiculous and retarded moves you can never ever use without drastically 'interpreting' them. I have seen some black belts do that to an amazing level.

If you just did the moves you used in a fight, it would look like shadow boxing, just the same shadow boxing every time.

**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 10:41pm

Originally Posted by ADM

Kata is almost a complete waste of time. Honestly, that line is not even CLOSE to harsh enough.

All this bullshit talk you're sprouting about being evolved over time, is complete and utter RUBBISH! If they were evolving they would have gotten rid of it all together and added more bag work.

I also said 'almost' complete waste of time because you can get a work out from it if you hit (the air) hard, etc. You can gain balance and control over your techniques. The problem lays with the fact that you can do all those things BETTER without Kata.

Question for you: how did you learn your martial art. You were shown, in form, everything. Artistry is all about form. Whether your forms are ancient calisthenics, or boxing footwork patterns, or 900 techniques to punch a bag, you're using some kind of form developed way before you were born. These forms are not for fighting, but for transmitting physically the arts. You will find the same kind of forms transmission in the works of Picasso, Monet, and so on.

Look at yoga. Are those forms useless? Would yoga have survived as it has throughout the ages if it had only been written down? Could you learn proper yoga from a book or a scroll?

Forms are a very useful combination of condition calisthenics and instruction manual for individual techniques, which can then be individually extracted (like bunkai in JMA), analyzed, drilled, introduced in san da, and eventually trained for real combat. Training in forms is a very freeing form of exercise, same as punching the **** out of a speed bag is a freeing form of exercise. Neither one teaches you how to fight, but they are a great way of getting there.

**ADM** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 10:42pm

Not if I said "do it this way, this way every time, in this stance, every time" it wouldn't.

Then people get all hung up on "how long do I hold this for" and stupid crap that really doesn't matter as if it were actually used in a fight (street or tournament) that thought will NEVER, EVER, cross your mind.

Nothing ridiculous about blocking and counter punching, or something as simple as a punch to the head.