Martial Arts Forms their true purpose?

[Dsimon3387]

I don't need too Darrell, I've been studying a Koryu sword art directly long enough to understand in general terms the origins and histories of its use.Really ??

I don't think so.

But knock yourself out trying.

In an earlier post of yours, you stated that most of the Iaido you'd seen was "****". Care to expand on that.

What method(s) of iai have you observed, and what were the level(s) of skill of the kenshi demonstrating the iai?

Were you looking at entry level waza or higher? Did someone with in-depth knowledge of the ryu(s) being observed, explain the nature of the techniques and the origins of the kata themselves?

I've been around the JSA communities for a lot of years, I've had the opportunity of experiencing first hand the ken/iai from Tenshin-shoden Katori Shinto Ryu through Osawa Sensei and Sosuishi Ryu Kumi Uchi Koshi No Mawari through Delaney Sensei, as well as a considerable amount of time directly studying Muso Shinden Ryu, I study Kendo Kata and although I haven't for about ten years, I used to practice Seitei.

All of these methods (I mention those because I have personal experience of them) have their own particular ways of doing pretty much the same things, the only time I've ever seen "****" being performed is as a result of the performer abilities, not the technique.

In terms of combative effectiveness, as I say, debate/discuss this 'till you pass out because the only sure-fire way to know is either; study for a lot of years, become proficient then test your skills against another swordsman - but this has already been done, hundreds of years ago, so why rehash it? it's a pointless discussion unless you're undertaking an in-depth research of koryu strategy because what you're discussing is nothing more than living history. It has no purpose any more other than to live on as a historical tradition which some people wish to study, enjoy and transmit to others... Or, you could befriend someone with a lifetime's worth of knowledge and coax the answers from them. I would suggest the training route would be the quicker option.

Let's look at the kata within Muso Shinden Ryu as a classic example. Do you think those kata haven't evolved over several hundred years into what they eventually are today ? When do you think the last set of "changes" were made ? Are you in a position to rationalise the reasons why, Hakudo Nakayama would see fit to change a set of Koryu forms ?

Why do you think Muso Shinden Ryu's first kata in the Omori ryu begins in seiza but utilises a long rather than a short sword ?

These Darrell, are all rhetorical questions and I'm not asking you or anyone to start answering them, I already know the answers but, my point is, you can't hope to have a serious and or fruitful discussion on the combat effectiveness of a Koryu sword art.

Go over to Kendo World or Sword Forum International, give it a go.

well... albeit ina rather roundabout, self masterbatory way you answered my question... It will be the KoRyu Hi faluten privaleged position du jour... would you like bread with that sir?

Yeah yeah yeah you know the forms you have studied, my firend pulls the same **** with me Dave... so please spare me.

**** you ok because the net allows no emotions to acccompany let me stress I am saying this in a jocular way, no harm intended

**** you because while one can talk about the devlopment of three weapons and on average around 3 lengths per a school of two of them, in Japanese Koryu history.... It does not mean that a Japnese stylist has to be bound in any way to those conventions to understand their relelvance to combat today. I know you disagree, it is the problem I see with the Koryu...

No Dave the **** does not need to be bottled and the reasons each school had period problems and changed forms does not need to be rhetorical.... these considerations can and do teach us about combat today. You know damn well that a good blade man who understands his tools is more dangerous in many many situations than the most well prepared fire arms expert. And maybe at the distance you shoot you don't have to think about that but I am quite certain your Koryu knowledge base if you learned practically in any capacity might make you glad to know it when you have to function in smaller spaces.

You want to kill the Koryu by making it knowedge that did apply.... well people can pick up a blade and start to understand the same problems Jpanese swordsmen had and look at these arts for a solution today.

You missed my point about the Iado... No need to repeat. And when you propose that Koryu have self contained ideas I have no quarrel with you. I just think that like most Koryu pricks I know when they get on their high horse you would rather conceptualize and mystify by dismissing the Koryu as a relic of the past than functionalize by taking the knowledge from these schools and applying it to the practice of the 3 weapons, the principles still apply.... there are only so many ways a man can use a bow and arrow, a stick of various lenghts and blades of various lengths to kill others yes?

[Dsimon3387]

And what experience does ANYBODY have in sword combat these days to be able to make that sort of judgement? Has he been in a number of sword fights? Seen many real sword fights?

well aaaa lets see here? we could take a secret Japanese mysterious technique from those old irrellevant slanty eyes.... Shall we? You take this plant that grows really fast called bamboo and you wrap it up and have a go at it... thing is if yu want you need not hit each other but instead you can propose to cut each other... why on many of these creations those cagey asians even designated a blade side!!! fancy that.


i can see where this is going... the other ugly side of Bullshido... the ass side has been present in this thread now we go to the arm pit: "I study Gracie Jiu Jitsu because I could never learn how to use a weapon uness it would kill someone and if someone wants to cut me there really is no way to defend against a knife..".

here it goes. here it comes :sad4:

[tgace]

I equate people who think Kendo is a good example of "real sword fighting" with the Air Soft people who like to talk about "real gunfights". Each has it's place in training specific combative skills/traits but thats as far as it goes.

[Dsimon3387]

I equate people who think Kendo is a good example of "real sword fighting" with the Air Soft people who like to talk about "real gunfights". Each has it's place in training specific combative skills/traits but thats as far as it goes.

who said anything about Kendo? kendo is not swordsmanship.

I equate people who believe that you cannot learn to use a sword because it does not train like hand and foot techniques to ignoramuses. So stupid that they do not understand

a) people in the old days had the same problems... they recorded what happened in battles which was (dueling times non with standing) actually a small part of the culture and practice of the weapon.... oh whats that I hear? the braying of the idoits now what are they saying? "those samurai see? they didn't care if they got cut see? so they could practice with the swords and not mind it see? and when they were not they were jump kicking Mongolians off the boats with side kicks see?"

Japanes thought is such and this might suprise people.... that if the opponent did not have to die during a duel he did not... hence even during most dueling people could use Boken and not be maimed or killed.... So why the **** can't people do sword again? oh wait there is more strupidity

b) The delivery system of a bladed weapon is such that if I can demonstrate that I touched your neck first before you cut me then I would win with the blades.... bladed weapons are such that you cn make assunmptions based on the delivery of the weapon to opponent.. Unlike a punch or a kick one of three things could occur with Boken or blade: 1) we both cut each other (Ieyuchi mutual kill), 2) you touch first, you win I die 3) vice versa.

The reason why modern blade arts like Sayok use a template system among others is because you CAN know that if you delver the weapon to target with a blade you will cut. This is not the case with stick or hand & foot but... it is also the case with archery notice... if the arrow is delivered to target it hit the target... period. Watch the famous duel in the Seven Samurai to see this point illustrated when an idiot says otherwise.

[Styygens]

Watch the famous duel in the Seven Samurai to see this point illustrated when an idiot says otherwise.

Dsimon -- you know I luv ya, but...

Did you just cite a movie as an example?

I know, I know. The 7Sam duel is based on a "true story." A true story about Yagyu Jubei, the same guy who has "true stories" about wearing an eye patch and being a ninja for the shogun. There's no proof either of those is true. I suspect some embellishment may be involved...

I think this may be the Movie Analogy corollary to Godwin's Law. Proving the thread has served run it's course.



Sorry it's not pretty kitties...

[speedycerviche]

And what experience does ANYBODY have in sword combat these days to be able to make that sort of judgement? Has he been in a number of sword fights? Seen many real sword fights?

How many knife fights has your Arnis teacher been in? How many weapons fights have most FMA and WMA teachers been in? Probably none but people still agree that they can teach weapons arts why is Koryu any different why can not they get a stick and whack each other? What about the non sword parts of Koryu (like Takenouchi ryu grappling) why can you not practice that part of Koryu like any other martial art?

[tgace]

How many knife fights has your Arnis teacher been in? How many weapons fights have most FMA and WMA teachers been in? Probably none but people still agree that they can teach weapons arts why is Koryu any different why can not they get a stick and whack each other? What about the non sword parts of Koryu (like Takenouchi ryu grappling) why can you not practice that part of Koryu like any other martial art?

If you wan't my opinion, most of them probably wouldn't do all too well in a real "knife fight" either. Or as well as they probably think they would. They could probably kill someone rather quickly in a knife ambush but thats a different story. The disarms and all the rest are more a matter of "do or die" (or do AND die more likely)...and when any of them say "That wont work in a REAL knife fight"...I think the exact same thing.

I'm not saying "don't train/practice" a weapon art, or that they are worthless; I'm saying it's been so long since there has been "man on man" sword fights that anybody who has really BTDT is LONG gone.

It's like modern military replacements coming in to fill combat losses. The fresh troop could be highly and well trained, but the combat vet is the one who really knows what that training was meant for and how it will really apply. All that training could still get you killed quickly if you don't learn from the guys who have been actually "doing it"...and historically a LOT of soldiers pay the price so those who remain could learn that lesson.

It seems to me that some classic artists are thinking that reading all the "field manuals" and running the drills equates to "combat experience"..to use another metaphor. Tell me I'm not doing something "technically" correct according to my systems standards but spare me the "that won't work in a real fight" unless you REALLY know that.

[Dsimon3387]

Dsimon -- you know I luv ya, but...

Did you just cite a movie as an example?

I know, I know. The 7Sam duel is based on a "true story." A true story about Yagyu Jubei, the same guy who has "true stories" about wearing an eye patch and being a ninja for the shogun. There's no proof either of those is true. I suspect some embellishment may be involved...

I think this may be the Movie Analogy corollary to Godwin's Law. Proving the thread has served run it's course.



Sorry it's not pretty kitties...

Not exactly..... I was not giving a reference to a specific martial fact I was describing the mentality of someone who thinks that a fist or a kick has the same feedback loop as a cut. To describe this mentality and nothing more there is a scene where two samurai are dueling and they have an argument about a technique. So naturally they wind up the same place with swords and the guy kills the other guy.

The point which is a mentality can be described quite well in this example acrually. Maybe hollyooded up but the point still stands

[Dsimon3387]

How many knife fights has your Arnis teacher been in? How many weapons fights have most FMA and WMA teachers been in? Probably none but people still agree that they can teach weapons arts why is Koryu any different why can not they get a stick and whack each other? What about the non sword parts of Koryu (like Takenouchi ryu grappling) why can you not practice that part of Koryu like any other martial art?

I have a man crush on you Speedy!
Amen. But but that JU Jutsu is too dangerous to practice so lets just worship it at a distance and let the guys who get Menkyo figure it out... you know like those rich Japanese guys who buy up the old Ryu ha scrolls? and become the headmasters? Like Tanaka Furmen?

God forbid a mere mortal should see in Koryu techniques the reason why they were used in combat, play with those ideas and develop those techniques in much the same way others did to develop Budo... god forbid.

I mean instead of understanding the relationship between the use and application of standing wrist locks (they are designed to work against weapons) lets just do the Bullshido party line and say "they don;t work they don't work enough times."

[Dsimon3387]

If you wan't my opinion, most of them probably wouldn't do all too well in a real "knife fight" either. Or as well as they probably think they would. They could probably kill someone rather quickly in a knife ambush but thats a different story. The disarms and all the rest are more a matter of "do or die" (or do AND die more likely)...and when any of them say "That wont work in a REAL knife fight"...I think the exact same thing.

I'm not saying "don't train/practice" a weapon art, or that they are worthless; I'm saying it's been so long since there has been "man on man" sword fights that anybody who has really BTDT is LONG gone.

It's like modern military replacements coming in to fill combat losses. The fresh troop could be highly and well trained, but the combat vet is the one who really knows what that training was meant for and how it will really apply. All that training could still get you killed quickly if you don't learn from the guys who have been actually "doing it"...and historically a LOT of soldiers pay the price so those who remain could learn that lesson.

It seems to me that some classic artists are thinking that reading all the "field manuals" and running the drills equates to "combat experience"..to use another metaphor. Tell me I'm not doing something "technically" correct according to my systems standards but spare me the "that won't work in a real fight" unless you REALLY know that.

You said the magic words: this is your opinion. I am dismayed frankly. If you came to me, as many security professionals have in the past with this mentality I would seriously question how you expect to fight another day... You do realize that reaching for your fire arm won't generally do you any good against most knife attacks at less than about 12 feet? thats untrained forget about trained

You do realize that a lot of weapons training is how to neutralize a ususally deadly advantage? for example your gun could be a poor choice but your nightstick is superb.... your footwork will save your life....

You learn through doing and not all doing has to be the way you do something when you learn to throw hands, grapple and struggle away. Again, look at the posts abnd respond to the assertion that knife, of which a sword is a type of more or less.... requires different training because a blade is delivered differetnly than a strike.

Speedy mentioned Takanuchi which happens to be a great example.... yes you grapple with knives but it is not how it sounds.