Martial Arts Forms their true purpose?

**speedycerviche** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 10:15am

"I think we may be talking about a different block, or its taught completely differently. Blocking a real round kick with that would indeed be stupid, but TKD snap kicks can totally be blocked with a crescent-looking block like that. Otherwise, makes much more sense to block groin shots like you said. In TKD competitions you shouldn't be kicking to the groin so maybe that is why I was once upon a time, taught to use it the way I described."

YouTube- Kyokushin Blocks - Seiken Gedan Barai

There that is the block and he talks about the applications.

**MrGalt** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 11:32am

Originally Posted by W. Rabbit

Forgive my hyberbole, but it's absolutely true. Power and strength can be developed through forms training.

Maybe to a certain very low level. Slowly and with poor efficiency. Forms are just aerobics. You want to be powerful and strong like an aerobics instructor?

Originally Posted by W. Rabbit

Someone also pointed out advanced forms in gong fu and even Judo are NOT FOR COMBAT but for advanced levels of development. Iron Wire in hung ga is a good example. This set involves muscular tension and breathing to enhance combat training already done with other exercises (including progressive resistance sanda with a partner).

Muscular tension katas (I got Sanchin in my kata days) are a trump card for the anti-kata side. Trying to do fighting techniques while breathing strangely and attempting to contract every muscle in your body is a perfect antithesis of proper training.

**helmutlvx** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 11:40am

Two points of clarification:

In Hedgehogy's post, the first picture was of a karateka performing gedan-barai in renoji-dachi. The second was a group of students performing gedan-barai in shiko-dachi.

Renoji-dachi is a stance that is mostly used in sweeps and close throws. I have no idea why that guy is posed like that, beyond the fact that it is a pose and not a show of technique.

Shiko-dachi is a very low stance used mostly with techniques that perform kuzushi. Back when I was a white belt, I would block mae-geri with gedan-barai.

This is a **** drill. It's useless. In kumite, you will get a bruised arm and get kicked. I don't know why this persists as a an actual defense, but there are much better leg defenses that use LEGS.

At dan level, that kind of **** won't fly and the "rule" "Hands meet hands, feet meet feet." is very logical. In my opinion.

This thread is getting more and more nauseating as the pages pile up.

**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 11:45am

Originally Posted by MrGalt

Maybe to a certain very low level. Slowly and with poor efficiency. Forms are just aerobics. You want to be powerful and strong like an aerobics instructor?

They are highly aerobic and mildly anaerobic. I agree they are a "low" level component of fight training but no more "low level" than other conditioning routines. No good fighter just spars, they do other forms of physical training...some of them really out there too. I read MMAMickey's thread on neck conditioning, there's a good example of something that on the surface is NOT FIGHTING but is still a great fight conditioning exercise. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater....

Originally Posted by MrGalt

Muscular tension katas (I got Sanchin in my kata days) are a trump card for the anti-kata side. Trying to do fighting techniques while breathing strangely and attempting to contract every muscle in your body is a perfect antithesis of proper training.

I don't know that its fair to compare different styles development-only kata, like I've said before there are so many forms...good, bad, ugly, stupid, and really, really smart. The breathing we learn in gong fu forms is very natural, nothing is ever forced. We don't contract every muscle in the body in gong fu forms, its selective and targeted (ie the dantian, or the wrists, or the forearms etc).

**speedycerviche** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 11:48am

"At dan level, that kind of **** won't fly and the "rule" "Hands meet hands, feet meet feet." is very logical. In my opinion."

But you see people blocking kicks all the time with their hands. Also how would you block a jodan or even a chudan level kick with your feet?.

"Maybe to a certain very low level. Slowly and with poor efficiency. Forms are just aerobics. You want to be powerful and strong like an aerobics instructor?"

Power is not just physical strength it also comes from correct body mechanics which Kata can teach. For example Nage no Kata can help you develop a powerful harai goshi through use of Judo principals and body mechanics it wont make you strong but it will make you able to use power in the context of the technique.

**MrGalt** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 11:54am

Originally Posted by W. Rabbit

They are highly aerobic and mildly anaerobic. I agree they are a "low" level component of fight training but no more "low level" than other conditioning routines. No good fighter just spars, they do other forms of physical training...some of them really out there too. I read MMAMickey's thread on neck conditioning, there's a good example of something that on the surface is NOT FIGHTING but is still a great fight conditioning exercise. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater....

Katas fail really hard as physical conditioning. A "real" kata has no advantages over tae-bo for conditioning.

**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 11:54am

Originally Posted by speedycerviche

Power is not just physical strength it also comes from correct body mechanics which Kata can teach. For example Nage no Kata can help you develop a powerful harai goshi through use of Judo principals and body mechanics it wont make you strong but it will make you able to use power in the context of the technique.

Great, great, great point. There is more than just brute muscular strength, hip power/agility? The form sets I practice among other things build strength and speed in the hips ability to snap with "ging". I've definitely built this up over the last year and can turn my waist faster, further, and with more power than ever before, this is an important part of gong fu training but it also definitely applies to things like Judo as speedy pointed out.

**MrGalt** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 11:57am

Originally Posted by W. Rabbit

The breathing we learn in gong fu forms is very natural, nothing is ever forced. We don't contract every muscle in the body in gong fu forms, its selective and targeted (ie the dantian, or the wrists, or the forearms etc).

If it's so natural, why do you have to learn it?

What benefits do you get out of contracting your dantian muscle?

**speedycerviche** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 12:01pm

"If it's so natural, why do you have to learn it?

What benefits do you get out of contracting your dantian muscle?"

Breathing is natural but you would be suprised how many people new to martial arts do not breath when doing randori or drills. From what I have been told by a Tajiquan teacher contracting it helps with posture and I have been doing and I feel it has helped my Judo and my over all back health (I have had a bad back for a while).

**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 12:02pm

Originally Posted by MrGalt

Katas fail really hard as physical conditioning. A "real" kata has no advantages over tae-bo for conditioning.

I disagree with that wholeheartedly, since I lost 30 lbs, gained significant muscle and increased flexibility, and increased my diaphragm strength enought to be able to toss my asthma medications from just practicing gong fu forms.

Now I do sanda using those techniques I learned in the forms, but I still do forms to stay in shape. It's not "fail" at all because I've seen very marked physical improvement from performing mine. But like I said, not all forms/sets/kata are going to be the same...