Martial Arts Forms their true purpose?

**Dsimon3387** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 2:59pm

I am putting this in Ymas because it is not style specific. You find a lot of information is transmitted in the martial arts without any real sceptacism.... that is the purpose of this site right? I mean if anyone can make a claim then anyone does and what we wind up with is less than steller results.

I hold a certain core belief that I developed some time ago after about 15 years of study in the martial arts. My belief was and is.... that if you sort of close your ears and eyes off a bit and take a part of the martial arts where people hold strong opinions.... if you play with the material certain facts will reveal themselves to you. For example, fight with a technique and find out for yourself about it and you will learn a lot, as compared to making assumptions.

Ok so.... forms. I don't believe that forms were designed to fight with at all I think that forms were developed as a way to hollographically transmit the art so that people could have a sort of physical text from which to study the art from. A kata can reveal so many things about an art, it can reveal techniques used, strategies employed, psychological approaches used by the art, and the pedogogy used by the art.

It is fallacy to think that a linear progression of technique A to technique B practiced as a form, translates exactly during a real situation. However what forms do allow is for a teacher to give the student the vocabulary, concepts and techniques of the art which can then be deconstructed further as the student develops the capacity and familiarity with the techniques and approaches.

Furthermore I believe that to think in one dimension as in "practicing a kick in a form = learning how to kick a person is misleading. In reality what reveals itself to a person practicing a technique in a form is different information depending on their ability. The Bujinkan is a great example of this phenomena: five people can learn a kata from Gyoko Ryu and depending on their level of ability can all learn different things. One person may learn how to do a technique, another person may learn how to set up a technique during a situation a third person may learn hidden (ura) applications that are not visible to most people. And finally a true teacher? Well I believe that in my case at least I would easily spend ten years unpacking all the information that is potentially available in one form in one school in the Gyokko system.

Most martial artists think that forms translate directly and matter of factly into application.... is that the fault of martial arts? that people misinterpret things?

If this topic is too high falutent I apologize... I have had this thought many years and IIF made an excellent observation during a thread related to an idiot who was telling his student during a fight to "walk a circle" as in do what the kata does.... and it made me want to bring this idiocy to the attention of this community.

Most teachers do still think this way do I have to comment in the potential for misinformation that comes out of this thoughtology? I have found in conversation that many older Chinese teachers do not think this way. In conversation with their senior students there seems to be a feeling that the katas are a way to teach the concepts that are then pulled out and developed as the teacher seems fit. Many gifted teachers in the Booj do the same thing Doran used to pull apart movements in the Kihon and schools and teach maximum efficiency with these movements during seminars.

If this is true then katas are a very sophisticated hollographic physically based textbook that is imprinted on the student and used based on the teacher and students level of insight into the art.... Technique literally reveals itself through what the katas put before one to play with, if one is brave enough to get punched in the nose enough times!! haha

**karma2343** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 3:08pm

You learn the form to learn the technique, then apply it in drills and sparring. Thats about as complicated as it gets.

**Dargentus** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 3:25pm

Originally Posted by karma2343

You learn the form to learn the technique, then apply it in drills and sparring. Thats about as complicated as it gets.

What he said.

Op: i think that this or much like it has been said in previous threads ( I know because I necro'ed it and thus became the focus for several bullies wrath:toothy5:)

And I sincerely admire anyone who uses the word 'thoughtology'.

Tip of the cap to you sir.

**RoninPimp** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 3:35pm

Class filler.

**helmutlvx** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 3:36pm

This thread is the equivalent of performing fellatio on a dead horse.

**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 3:42pm

Originally Posted by Dsimon3387

If this is true then katas are a very sophisticated hollographic physically based textbook that is imprinted on the student and used based on the teacher and students level of insight into the art.... Technique literally reveals itself through what the katas put before one to play with, if one is brave enough to get punched in the nose enough times!! haha

I agree 100% that kata/forms are encyclopedic training manuals in four dimensional calisthenic form. imho, forms/kata are the just best way to compile and transmit physical techniques from generation to generation. You can't do the same thing with books (they are two dimensional) or DVDs (also two dimentional) which represent the most advanced forms of information in the 21st century, but these ancient forms are actually 4D models of techniques and transitions, amazingly advanced considering how old a concept they are.

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 3:58pm

I like learning forms because it is historical record of my art that has been handed down intact through a long, unbroken lineage. It is cool to be doing a form that was done similarly a hundred years ago.

However, I prefer bag work and sparring to learn to fight. It is a lot quicker and to the point.

I would tell people to learn to fight first, and then forms afterward, in order to give them something further to develop in their art.

**Dargentus** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 4:11pm

Originally Posted by helmutlvx

This thread is the equivalent of performing fellatio on a dead horse.

While whipping it.

Lets sit Back now and watch all the forms-adherents come out of the woodwork and initiate a big beastial necrophiliac circle jerk...with sado-masochistic overtones.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 4:37pm

Forms also serve as mnemonic tools in largely illiterate or partially literate cultures/communities, especially those that really venerate "ancestral wisdom". They also have a cultural and historical value that has very little to do with how well they teach practical fighting skills, though IMO a good teacher/practitioner can interpret forms so that they do teach valid practical lessons.

**Dsimon3387** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 4:59pm

Originally Posted by karma2343

You learn the form to learn the technique, then apply it in drills and sparring. Thats about as complicated as it gets.

You may believe that is all there is to it... that is not what I said in this thread though.

My point is that forms can be a way to teach strategy, the thinking of the art, techniques and even things like formalities of the art...

My point is that there is an efficiency about transmitting information this way where you can give a person the information and have it arrainged so that as they get better the information actually shows them more about itself and... the information can be taken out of the kata by a good teacher and elaborated upon.

Another example would be the vedic texts of India which were completely memorized by the Brahmans... in so memorizing the text was broken into syllabules that allowed one to teach and learn Sanskrit... each directional nod of the head corresponding to a syllabule. In this manner many things are taught and conveyed as part of the text.