I got judoed

**judoka_uk** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 7:30am

Originally Posted by Rids

I thought it was drop seoi nage if you went to both knees, drop seoi otoshi if you only go down to the one knee?
But a blackbelt at my club told me that the only difference between the two is the hand/arm motion (elbow goes toward there armpit in seoi nage, whereas forearm stays more upright in seoi otoshi).
I put it out of my mind until this thread came along.

Judo throws are classified according to throwing principle.

You can't have a 'drop seoi nage', because the principles are in conflict. If the throw was a drop it would be called 'otoshi' or drop. Seoi means 'carry on the back' and nageru, the root word for nage. means 'to throw'. So if you throw someone and in the process they are 'carried on your back' it is 'seoi'. If to effect the throwing action once someone is on your back you drop down then it is 'otoshi' because you have dropped to cause the throw to happen. Whether you do it on one or both knees is irrelevant.

If you have someone on your back and you drop down then spring back up or project uke upwards to effect the throw then it is 'nage' because the dropping action was only incidental to the throwing action the main thing that caused the throw was your spring back up or projection of uke.

As for hand positioning if you're holding sleeve and lapel and you place you lapel hand elbow in uke's armpit it is 'morote seoi' if you wrap your lapel hand arm around uke's arm after having let go of their lapel it is 'ippon seoi'. You then add 'otoshi' or 'nage' according to the throwing principle outline above.

This is what the video shows, the video is produced by the Kodokan as their official nage waza video and was designed to eliminate confusions such as your coach thinking that one knee or two knees is the difference between nage and otoshi.

Secondary body positioning often confuses many people and they add in unnecessary or incorrect terminology as a result. So for example a Tai otoshi is defined by the 'body drop' action. It is irrelevant whether I am holding same side sleeve and lapel, gripping both sleeves, or holding just one sleeve.

If however I'm standing with my legs spread in the Tai otoshi fashion, but in throwing load uke onto my back then it is no longer a Tai otoshi it is a Seoi nage, usually a Morote seoi nage. As I said earlier 'seoi' means 'carry back'. This is because the leg positioning is incidental to the throwing action you can do Tai otoshi without putting a leg across as long as the 'body drop principle' is adhered to. However, as soon as you load uke onto your back you are doing some form of 'seoi waza'.

Obviously in competition the line can become very blurred where does a Sode tsurikomi goshi end and a Sode seoi nage begin when it all happens in the blink of an eye, for example.

**jfingaz123** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 7:54am

Originally Posted by sainthamish

Drop morote seoi nage. Ouch for you.

I'm pretty sure that was the one.

**Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 8:47am

Originally Posted by judoka_uk

Judo throws are classified according to throwing principle.

You can't have a 'drop seoi nage', because the principles are in conflict. If the throw was a drop it would be called 'otoshi' or drop. Seoi means 'carry on the back' and nageru, the root word for nage. means 'to throw'. So if you throw someone and in the process they are 'carried on your back' it is 'seoi'. If to effect the throwing action once someone is on your back you drop down then it is 'otoshi' because you have dropped to cause the throw to happen. Whether you do it on one or both knees is irrelevant.

If you have someone on your back and you drop down then spring back up or project uke upwards to effect the throw then it is 'nage' because the dropping action was only incidental to the throwing action the main thing that caused the throw was your spring back up or projection of uke.

As for hand positioning if you're holding sleeve and lapel and you place you lapel hand elbow in uke's armpit it is 'morote seoi' if you wrap your lapel hand arm around uke's arm after having let go of their lapel it is 'ippon seoi'. You then add 'otoshi' or 'nage' according to the throwing principle outline above.

This is what the video shows, the video is produced by the Kodokan as their official nage waza video and was designed to eliminate confusions such as your coach thinking that one knee or two knees is the difference between nage and otoshi.

Secondary body positioning often confuses many people and they add in unnecessary or incorrect terminology as a result. So for example a Tai otoshi is defined by the 'body drop' action. It is irrelevant whether I am holding same side sleeve and lapel, gripping both sleeves, or holding just one sleeve.

If however I'm standing with my legs spread in the Tai otoshi fashion, but in throwing load uke onto my back then it is no longer a Tai otoshi it is a Seoi nage, usually a Morote seoi nage. As I said earlier 'seoi' means 'carry back'. This is because the leg positioning is incidental to the throwing action you can do Tai otoshi without putting a leg across as long as the 'body drop principle' is adhered to. However, as soon as you load uke onto your back you are doing some form of 'seoi waza'.

Obviously in competition the line can become very blurred where does a Sode tsurikomi goshi end and a Sode seoi nage begin when it all happens in the blink of an eye, for example.

Thanks for the information.

I've got a small question about the naming of a ippon seoi nage variant:

The technique starts out as a normal standing ippon seoi nage (with carrying your opponent on your back).
At the moment that my opponent starts to lose contact with my back (in the beginning of the throw), I squat through my knees, therefor accelerating the fall of my opponent and giving him less time to perform the ukemi.

Now I have to say that the technique is only performed on the bigger crash-mats and not on the standard tatame, since the opponent most of the times is planted shoulder first in the crash-mat, so it's more self-defense orientated than normal competition.

I call my version 'squat seoi nage', but a lot of other Judoka at my club perform the move with dropping on their knees instead of squating, hence calling their technique 'drop seoi nage'.
Personal believe is that since the technique is better to do damage against an adversary in self-defense, I prefer squating, then hitting real ground with my both knees.

How would you call this version in the Japanese language?

**speedycerviche** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 8:52am

"You can't have a 'drop seoi nage'"

No but you can have a low (as low as your knees) seoi nage that does not work off the drop but rather off the same principal as normal seoi nage.

**raylawley** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 9:06am

Wow, awesome post judoka_uk. That's fascinating

**judoka_uk** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 11:00am

Originally Posted by Zendokan

Thanks for the information.

I've got a small question about the naming of a ippon seoi nage variant:

The technique starts out as a normal standing ippon seoi nage (with carrying your opponent on your back).
At the moment that my opponent starts to lose contact with my back (in the beginning of the throw), I squat through my knees, therefor accelerating the fall of my opponent and giving him less time to perform the ukemi.

Now I have to say that the technique is only performed on the bigger crash-mats and not on the standard tatame, since the opponent most of the times is planted shoulder first in the crash-mat, so it's more self-defense orientated than normal competition.

I call my version 'squat seoi nage', but a lot of other Judoka at my club perform the move with dropping on their knees instead of squating, hence calling their technique 'drop seoi nage'.
Personal believe is that since the technique is better to do damage against an adversary in self-defense, I prefer squating, then hitting real ground with my both knees.

How would you call this version in the Japanese language?

Sounds like you're performing a very low Seoi nage.

I imagine what you're doing is something like the first 30 seconds of this video, except with the 'ippon grip'.

YouTube- MATSUOKA,MOROTE SEOI NAGE

If so its nage because your body and hands are effecting the throwing action by projecting uke. Rather than the act of your dissapearing underneath them, dropping, causing the throw.

**C0WB0Y** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 11:14am

Why are you studying BJJ in Japan?? That's like going to Brasil to learn Judo.

**Lu Tze** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 11:20am

Judo is bigger in Brazil than BJJ... there's something like 6 million players.

**judoka_uk** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 11:23am

Originally Posted by Lu Tze

Judo is bigger in Brazil than BJJ...

Come on Lu Tze everyone knows the only country in the world where you can learn Judo is Japan.

Its not like France, Russia, Korea, Georgia and Brazil have any decent Judo players or get medals at international events.

**Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 12:23pm

Originally Posted by judoka_uk

Sounds like you're performing a very low Seoi nage.

I imagine what you're doing is something like the first 30 seconds of this video, except with the 'ippon grip'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETUbjmBavps

If so its nage because your body and hands are effecting the throwing action by projecting uke. Rather than the act of your dissapearing underneath them, dropping, causing the throw.

Thank you, that's indeed my '(squat) seoi nage'.