7/14/2010 10:28am, #31
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
Hollowpoint loads are generally not going to expand, unless they hit a fluid medium. Thus, when they hit intermediate barriers, they're going to behave like FMJ.
If someone's concerned about shooting through intermediate barriers, such as automobile glass, dry wall, etc., and still get reasonable expansion, there are plenty of choices on the market that will allow one to do so, such as Speer's excellent Gold Dot, along with many of the "bonded" hollowpoints.
On another note, FMJ isn't a bad manstopper, even in the 9 mm Parabellum. The NYPD used FMJ in their weapons all the way up to the 90's, and didn't really have complaints about its manstopping performance.
Where I will not argue, though, is that FMJ has a greater chance of overpenetration.
7/15/2010 1:55am, #32
- Join Date
- Oct 2004
That "stopping power" site posted is garbage. Everyone should read this: http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b...ics/myths.html
Then read it again every few days for however long it takes to seem like its simply common knowledge to you.
7/15/2010 2:22am, #33
That was quite authoritative. There are a lot of different viewpoints on "Stopping Power" and evidence to back or detract from many of them. What makes you so quick to completely dismiss a source?
7/15/2010 2:37pm, #34
7/15/2010 7:38pm, #35
Thanks, this was almost a good read. The author takes a long time to explain the complexities of it all and is dismissive of authors that fail to take into account all the facts. You cant just look at one factor when it comes to ammo and target composition/ shot placement.
Seriously the information is very good but you are a better man than me for being able to reread it regularly.
A good site for people interested in the "penetration" vs. "expansion" thang...
Thanks to you too, thatís a good reference source
7/16/2010 12:02pm, #36
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
With today's hollowpoint loads, you're going to get both, if you buy a premium hollowpoint load. In a nutshell, companies the likes of CCI / Speer, Remington, Federal, Winchester, etc., have all spent millions of dollars for research and development, and have come up with premium designs that are going to perform in the same ballpark of effectiveness.
These days, you don't really need high velocities to attain reliable expansion out of a hollowpoint load, compared to the loads of 25 years ago, where the "fast and light" crowd would point out the benefits to high velocities and light weights.
I would feel equally confident carrying around Remington's standard pressure 147 grain Golden Saber JHP load in any of my 9 mm Parabellum firearms, as I would with the latest and greatest loads, such as Federal HST, Winchester Ranger, Speer Gold Dot, etc.
Does this mean that what the Marshall and Sanow crowd was saying is wrong? Not necessarily. There is a good bit of merit to their studies. For example, one of their highest rated 9 mm loads, the Federal BPLE 115 grain JHP +P+, is still in use today, with several agencies still using this old tried and true load. They don't have any complaints about its performance when it comes to stopping the bad guy, even though the penetration may be a bit shallow for the Fackler crowd.
7/16/2010 2:28pm, #37
Some really smart and good-looking guy wrote an article on bullets and wounds here:
Self-Defense Ammunition: Myths and Magic! - No BS MMA and Martial Arts
Seriously...this sort of thing is very contentious. The question really boils down to: Where will the energy go?
GROSS OVERSIMPLIFICATION FOLLOWS:
If you use ball ammo, all the energy may not go into the bad guy, or it may be dispersed along a longer wound channel, mitigating it's effects.
If you use two rounds of identical weight and velocity (One JHP one ball/fmj), the ball round will penetrate further because it holds it's tapered tip and narrow cross-section longer. Sometimes this is good, but this extra penetration means that there is more surface area (as a function of wound channel geometry) to distribute this energy along.
The hollow point round will expand and deposit it's energy more quickly, resulting in a shallower (shorter) wound channel. Since the delivered energy is identical, the shorter wound channel will experience far higher pressures and structural failures.
Translation: the same quantity of force, delivered over a smaller area, does more damage. This means that the hollow point is more likely to destroy tissues and bones it encounters, whereas the ball is more likely to experience deflection around dense tissues and bone. If the round exits the target, then much of it's energy will not be deposited to the bad guy at all.
This does not mean that ball isn't deadly...just a good JHP is generally superior. Since there is no dearth of availability, and the cost is not prohibitive, most shooters don't see any reason to use ball for anything other than practice.And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".
--Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
7/16/2010 3:50pm, #38
Scrapper's got some darn good stuff other than this too. I forgot about that article. Wasn't that long ago either.
7/19/2010 12:20am, #39
That's because he's right. 9mm Ball ammo is only good for shooting targets, and this has been corroborated by MANY people who've had to rely on it.
I contend its borderline irresponsible, if you're shooting anything above say a .380, to carry anything other then hollow points, (hereto referred to as manly rounds) on the basis of through-and-throughs alone. Sure, you shot the guy in the heart, but you also shot the lady behind him in the shoulder. I personally like the kind with the little polymer in the tip that makes it open (supposedly.) I think they look cooler.
Also, for all the rifles in my house, there is a mag loaded with special, "home defense" ammo. Its got a fancy red polymer tip that turns that whore into a hollow point, and prevents it from punching through people/walls/pets etc.
Anyone know about it? Does that trash work like it says it will?
PROOF that I'm not a completely useless poster:
Originally Posted by Cy Q. Faunce
7/19/2010 7:00am, #40
Unless you are shooting 89-pound crack -heads, OR using some sort of super-bullet, then any 9mm round that exits on a clean chest hit will not have enough velocity to do much more than raise a welt.
In order to penetrate a human being AND exit with what is generally considered lethal velocity, you need to be in the 2500 ft-lb range or higher. We are talking 500 S&W, 460 Ruger, and .454 Casull for handguns, or any decent 30 caliber rifle. (303, .308, .30-06, .762X54, 8mm, etc.)
Where ball really under-performs is on shallow-angle hits (skipping off bone/muscle without real damage), hits to non-lethal areas (not produce enough trauma for stoppage), limbs/extremity shots (passing through wit no real damage done). Since any number of hits in a gunfight can be, and often are, of these varieties, ball runs a higher-risk of not stopping the bad guy.
Putting a round right though the chest with damn near ANY round is a pretty reliable man-stopper though.And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".
--Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.