Ball ammunition versus various hollow points for self defense with a pistol

**mad_malk** · Posted On: 7/11/2010 11:29pm

I am going to answer this two ways. Hollow points are always better regardless of the caliber in pistol or rifle Except when you have to attempt to shoot threw barriers or concealment.

If you wish to test this out legally go get a hunting license and shoot wild boar (were applicable)there in season year round in most states. I guarantee you with decent shot placment you can drop one with a 5.56 in one shot. There is a reason why most hunting laws require you to use HOLLOW points. SO you Kill what you shot not just wound it and have it die miles away from being gut shot and slowly bleeding out.

**tgace** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 1:04am

Originally Posted by mad_malk

I am going to answer this two ways. Hollow points are always better regardless of the caliber in pistol or rifle Except when you have to attempt to shoot threw barriers or concealment.

If you wish to test this out legally go get a hunting license and shoot wild boar (were applicable)there in season year round in most states. I guarantee you with decent shot placment you can drop one with a 5.56 in one shot. There is a reason why most hunting laws require you to use HOLLOW points. SO you Kill what you shot not just wound it and have it die miles away from being gut shot and slowly bleeding out.

It took 2 to the chest and one to the head (that one did it). But the 2 to the vitals was probably more due to my inexperience with Boar anatomy (first boar hunt for me) than the round. Still..it was a 400+ lb beast. So not too bad for 55 gr SJHP.

Although next time I would probably go with a 62-69 gr or a 75 gr if my 1:9 Bushmaster barrel will stabilize 75 gr...havent proof tested it on that weight yet. I didn't expect it to be THIS big.

My father-in-law, who bagged one of similar size with an M1 Garand still took more than 1 shot to finish his. Shot placement is king regardless of caliber.

**mad_malk** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 1:31am

1.9 will have trouble stabilizing the 75gr you might even get key holeing with the 69gr but the 65gr should be OK. but test it first of course.

nice shooting where did you hit it with the two body shots? usually just behind that front leg will drop them if there perpindicular to you.

**tgace** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 1:36am

Originally Posted by mad_malk

1.9 will have trouble stabilizing the 75gr you might even get key holeing with the 69gr but the 65gr should be OK. but test it first of course.

nice shooting where did you hit it with the two body shots? usually just behind that front leg will drop them if there perpindicular to you.

I whacked the leg bone with the first..it deflected but still dropped it. It stayed down so long I thought I 1 shot killed it, but then it got up and started to hobble off. The second was behind the leg but a tad high. Dropped it again but it got up yet again. The head shot dropped it for sure.

**submessenger** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 6:31am

Originally Posted by tgace

Shot placement is king regardless of caliber.

This is true, but comparing shot placement in boar hunting to shot placement in self defense is like comparing apples to houses.

In a likely self defense scenario, in the heat of the moment, you're caught off guard, scared, adrenaline is kicking in, there's no adequate lighting, and you're trying to convince yourself that the target you're choosing is OK to shoot at.

You're jittery, probably in close quarters, and once that first round goes off, you're also deaf. Even an expert marksman would have trouble with shot placement under this amount of stress. Most home defenders have had little more than a safety course. Range time: what's that?

This isn't to suggest that you can expect to stop an attack by shooting the attacker in the leg; you can reasonably expect to stop an attack by putting two rounds center mass. Hollow points give the shooter a slight advantage towards effecting a critical wound with a shot that's not optimally placed.

**Devil** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 1:19pm

Originally Posted by zaohu

Just about perfectly answered WR's question for me. Thank you.

I would like to add that I do not condone using rifles for home defense. Handguns are my personal preference, followed by shotguns (which are the more common preference for HD). The main reason I choose a handgun for home defense is training. I've got enough of a problem getting as much training as I'd like with a handgun as-is, so I'd like to stick to my comfort zone instead of switching to another weapon system for HD. That said, if I had more time I'd like to have a shotgun for home defense purposes for it's true knockdown power (as I said, long arms have far more knockdown capability than handguns which are inherently an underpowered compromise of size and firepower). I'm hoping to implement a Saiga 12 to my arsenal for my birthday coming up in September, a gift to myself, so that I won't have to learn another skillset since I'm at least decent with the AK platform already.

I can't disagree with what you're saying. On the other hand, I use an M4 style AR-15 as one of my home defense weapons. I chose a different weapon than you, but I chose it for the same reason - training.

My downstairs weapon is a .40 Sig. My upstairs weapon is the AR. It's part of a larger home security plan. I have thousands of rounds of practice with the AR platform. I know I can operate it when I'm disoriented, like I'm likely to be if somebody kicks in my door while I'm sleeping.

Another part of my home security plan is to make it hard as **** for anybody to get in my house. Solid doors, solid locks, etc. They can get in if they try hard enough, but they're going to make a ton of noise in the process and once they're in, they'll wish they had stayed outside.

Also, the way my house is laid out, if I'm woken up by kicking I can grab the rifle and wait at the top of the stairs where I'll have cover. The only way up is the stairs, where I'll be firing at a downward angle into the floor, sparing my neighbors a hale of gunfire. I'll be between my family and the intruders the whole time.

Plus, 30 rounds ain't nothing to **** with. Anyway, it's hard to say what the best weapon is for home defense. It all depends on the layout of your house, your overall home defense plan (you do have one, don't you), personal familiarity with various weapons, etc.

**tgace** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 3:31pm

Originally Posted by daddykata

This is true, but comparing shot placement in boar hunting to shot placement in self defense is like comparing apples to houses.

In a likely self defense scenario, in the heat of the moment, you're caught off guard, scared, adrenaline is kicking in, there's no adequate lighting, and you're trying to convince yourself that the target you're choosing is OK to shoot at.

You're jittery, probably in close quarters, and once that first round goes off, you're also deaf. Even an expert marksman would have trouble with shot placement under this amount of stress. Most home defenders have had little more than a safety course. Range time: what's that?

This isn't to suggest that you can expect to stop an attack by shooting the attacker in the leg; you can reasonably expect to stop an attack by putting two rounds center mass. Hollow points give the shooter a slight advantage towards effecting a critical wound with a shot that's not optimally placed.

Absolutely. And in hunting the idea is to take a well placed single shot. Dropping that boar with a stream of shots would have been "bad form".

However I'm not comparing hunting to defensive shootings. I say "shot placement is king" in regards to any rounds "inherent lethality". A .30 hitting a limb or missing all the vitals isn't going to be any more magically lethal than a .223, and hunting..in terms of "field testing" lethality of a round provides a better example of a rounds terminal ballistics on a living creature than say a gelatin block.

**Mr. Machette** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 3:50pm

The "hollow point" vs. "FMJ" also depends greatly on the round.

.45 ACP ball is a famous man stopper. It's relatively slow velocity, wide caliber, and heavy projectile pretty much eliminate the need for a hollow point.

However, smaller, faster rounds like 9mm, .357mag, or 10mm, will have a tendency to over penetrate, so hollow point is integral to stopping you baddie, and avoiding hitting some poor bastard three walls over.

In fact, if your shooting indoors, I would recommend hollow points or frangible in whatever you are using.

Keep in mind, that the reason the Army uses ball ammunition almost exclusively has everything to do with international conventions, and nothing to do with it being superior in every way. Law enforcement, who are not so bound by the laws of war, use hollow points.

Think about it.

**submessenger** · Posted On: 7/12/2010 4:21pm

Originally Posted by tgace

Absolutely. And in hunting the idea is to take a well placed single shot. Dropping that boar with a stream of shots would have been "bad form".

However I'm not comparing hunting to defensive shootings. I say "shot placement is king" in regards to any rounds "inherent lethality". A .30 hitting a limb or missing all the vitals isn't going to be any more magically lethal than a .223, and hunting..in terms of "field testing" lethality of a round provides a better example of a rounds terminal ballistics on a living creature than say a gelatin block.

I just didn't think the sidebar about dropping a boar was relevant to the discussion. I already agreed that shot placement is king; my point is you're going to need a good deal of luck to make that shot in self defense, so why would you give up any potential advantage (better ammo, extra shots, etc.)?

Originally Posted by Mr. Machette

.45 ACP ball is a famous man stopper. It's relatively slow velocity, wide caliber, and heavy projectile pretty much eliminate the need for a hollow point.

I carry a USP Compact .45 for this reason. Checking the stats from http://handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp (thx zoahu), I was surprised to see how much more effective a .45 in a hollow-point variation was compared to FMJ. Although, I do have some questions on the methodology of those results (real world shootings). I guess I'm going to have to buy and read the book.