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  1. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/09/2010 10:27am

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    Kihon based katate dori sumi otoshi

    YouTube- Donovan Waite Sensei- Sumi Otoshi USAF Summer Camp 06

    This is the "arms extended" method I was describing earlier, the only difference is that the attack is merely a training principle. Unfortunately I can't find any video of the waza against a solid/decent punching based strike.

    To respond with sumi otoshi from a decent punch to the head is quite difficult, and wouldn't be my first choice actually.

    Shomen uchi tenkan irimi nage

    YouTube- Shomen Uchi Irimi Nage

    Watch this clip and notice during the slow motion part, how Tissier's left arm draws toward his left hip as the right arm travels over uke's shoulder, the principles similar to sumi otoshi are at play. Granted, there's a liberal amount of hip being used as well in the opposite direction but that's the make-up of irmi nage.

    These and other techniques share very similar principles because in reality there's only so many ways to create a kuzushi.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  2. RaiNnyX4 is online now

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2010 10:22am


     Style: Aikido/Judo/BJJ/Naginata

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    I've actually found Sumi-Otoshi to be one of Aikido's better techniques.

    Of course, doing it the way as it is usually practiced in most Aikido dojos will never work.

    It's already been touched upon that the "arms extended" training version is pretty impossible to pull off.

    The way I do Sumi-Otoshi is to think about it as a kind of drop Ippon Seoi-Nage in the opposite direction.

    For reference, here is drop Ippon Seoi-Nage:

    YouTube- Ippon Seoi Nage (drop)

    So, what I do is take one of two grips:

    1. Both hands on the wrist

    2. One hand on the wrist and one hand hooking under the armpit as for Ippon Seoi-Nage

    From grip 1: I take a deep step to my opponent's corner with my outside foot, raise the arm, and cut down with my whole body as hard as I can.

    From grip 2: I dive to my knees at my opponent's corner as if I were doing a drop Ippon Seoi-Nage.

    The Ukemi for this can be kind of tricky actually. As I said before, it very much resembles an Ippon Seoi-Nage in execution. As such, the Ukemi will be very similar with the opponent often rolling over your back in a forward breakfall.

    Hope this helps.
  3. Adam Alexander is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2010 8:11pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by ignorami View Post
    We do some 'alive' training, with resisting partners, but as it's not a technique we do a great deal of, its never hit hard resistance until relatively recently.

    When it did, it failed utterly, so we flagged it and have been working on it since. - No Joy.
    Uke's moving forward while pushing on your wrist?
  4. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2010 2:32am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Alexander View Post
    Uke's moving forward while pushing on your wrist?
    Lol, No... Kicking people off live horses!

    Thanks for the links and tips guys. I'm expecting a really quiet training session tonight because of the world cup final, but if anyone else turns up we'll have a look at applying some of it tonight.

    Good to find a place where answers aren't the usual Ai-geh-do "uke shouldn't ever be resisting" bollocks that prove Adam's view right.
  5. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2010 2:45am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Alexander View Post
    Uke's moving forward while pushing on your wrist?
    That was assuming you (Adam) were laughing at the idea of any 'live' aikido practice. (poster's intent not always interpreted correctly) If you actually meant was that the trouble we had getting the technique off, not really. Uke was managing to get their back foot place really solidly with little effort, and as the technique was being applied was in a great position to either strike tori, or move for either a headlock or a corner drop of their own to tori's flank/rear.
  6. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2010 3:14am

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    I'd also like to add one more thing.

    Never stop moving.

    Aikido really often falls foul of the classic "uke/tori" relationship where tori stands still and waits for the 'attack' then responds - this is in part often confused with the notion that aikido is a purely 'reactive' system and needs an attack to initiate a technique.

    Bollocks.

    That said, I mentioned before that aikido lacks a delivery system which is another symptom of the uke/tori methodology.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  7. Adam Alexander is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2010 9:38am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by ignorami View Post
    That was assuming you (Adam) were laughing at the idea of any 'live' aikido practice. (poster's intent not always interpreted correctly) If you actually meant was that the trouble we had getting the technique off, not really. Uke was managing to get their back foot place really solidly with little effort, and as the technique was being applied was in a great position to either strike tori, or move for either a headlock or a corner drop of their own to tori's flank/rear.
    Is uke resisting the attacking arm being swung out?
  8. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2010 10:34am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Alexander View Post
    Is uke resisting the attacking arm being swung out?
    Hi Adam

    No, once the attacking arm is taken by tori, uke is pretty much sacrificing that arm altogether in favour of attacking with the other arm.
  9. Adam Alexander is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2010 5:55pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by ignorami View Post
    Hi Adam

    No, once the attacking arm is taken by tori, uke is pretty much sacrificing that arm altogether in favour of attacking with the other arm.
    Imagine there is a line that uke's feet are on. That's uke's strong/power line. Perpendicular and at the center of that is uke's weak line. Regardless of how strong uke is, there is no strength there. Swing uke's arm parallel to that line and move your hips as if you're pushing a car along that same line. Continue to move outward until uke is forced to bring up his leg in order to maintain balance. Then, just give a little shove.

    Since uke isn't resisting the swing of the connected arms, I'd swing slow so that you don't force a reflex contraction. However, I think once you get the mechanics of the throw right, work on "explosive" (like you see powerlifters accomplish) speed so that you stay ahead of the contraction.
  10. judoist is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2010 9:58am


     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Alexander View Post
    Imagine there is a line that uke's feet are on. That's uke's strong/power line. Perpendicular and at the center of that is uke's weak line. Regardless of how strong uke is, there is no strength there.
    One of the interesting things about this "strong and weak line" is that it can be applied to just about any technique. Back in the old days, I practiced Shotokan Karate. My karate sensei used to call the strong line "line of stance integrity". This principle can be applied to karate stances, judo/aikido throws... The works.
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