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  1. #1
    Ignorami's Avatar
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    Aikido 'Sumi Otoshi'- Really???

    Hope this is going in the right place, I've previously been a lurker.

    We have a technique that's been in our Aikido syllabus for ages - Sumi Otoshi.

    We do some 'alive' training, with resisting partners, but as it's not a technique we do a great deal of, its never hit hard resistance until relatively recently.

    When it did, it failed utterly, so we flagged it and have been working on it since. - No Joy.

    Every time any of the other local Aiki dan grades has paid us a visit, we raise it with them. Each has seemed confident and had a go for us. - No Joy

    Like most Aikido, we can get it to work with a lot of striking, but in this instance, if we leave that striking in but take the technique out, there is no discernible loss.

    Leads me to wonder if there is a point to this technique, or is it BS?

    I see it pulled off in Shodokan competitions on youtube, but I can't judge how much compliance is involved.

    Any wisdom gratefully appreciated. Are we just doing it wrong? Is it some exercise that's supposed to be teaching us something else?

    I think Judo have a similar technique by the same name but that pulls towards/around the thrower instead of pushing behind the throwee. Is that true? How's it working out for you guys? We can kind of force ours to function if we put the hip in and make it much more koshinage.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Rock Ape's Avatar
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    Sumi otoshi executed with extended arms and through irimi will likely always fail unless you've checked the incoming energy with atemi or, if you're adept enough make tenkan whilst collecting the arm however, that arm isn't going to stay extended very long.

    I always found that sumi otoshi worked much better after a strike to the face of uke, and rather than extend my arms in the 'classical sense' but capture uke's arm and use my body movement.

    You might say this is henka waza (variation technique) and in essence you'd be right but the principle of dropping to the corner still exists and yes, I'd also be making connection with my hips and, if required, wouldn't be adverse to further altering the basic into ashi barai by inserting my closest leg behind uke's as he falls backwards and to the corner.

    Aikido technique lacks a delivery system, if you squarely punch uke in the teeth before most applications, you'll find a higher success rate.

    Techniques which are applied with a greater degree of severity are known as ara waza.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler

  3. #3
    Rock Ape's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, don't forget that sumi otoshi can be equally applied from ura waza, deflect the incoming strike, move around through tenkan to the flank and drop uke through his shoulders and or grabbing the gi top at the neck and pulling down whilst moving back and away from uke. You can also make henka waza by kicking behind the knee of the leg on the side of the corner you wish to drop uke.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Stiglitz View Post
    Also, don't forget that sumi otoshi can be equally applied from ura waza, deflect the incoming strike, move around through tenkan to the flank and drop uke through his shoulders and or grabbing the gi top at the neck and pulling down whilst moving back and away from uke. You can also make henka waza by kicking behind the knee of the leg on the side of the corner you wish to drop uke.
    Thank you very much for the advice, i'll treasure it!
    A Nidan senpai of mine executes the tecnique just as you do!

  5. #5
    Ignorami's Avatar
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    Thanks Hugo,

    It seems to me that all the changes applied to make it work turn it into more of an ara waza* Tenchi Nage. I don't like to get bogged down in names rather than content, but it seems to make Sumi Otoshi as a separate entity redundant.

    What you say about Ura Waza is great. We do a lot of that, but have never made the mental connection that its Sumi Otoshi (doh!). Raises a new question though of why all the syllabus' have it principally from in front? Even if years of slack practice have made it madness now, what was the thinking originally?

    * I'll be using that phrase next session,acting like I've always known it.

  6. #6
    Rock Ape's Avatar
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    On occasion I've also been known to kidney punch on the side I'm dropping too, especially if timing has been off slightly and there's about an arms length to make up before the technique. This may create the effect of uke 'caving in' on that side.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler

  7. #7
    Rock Ape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignorami View Post
    Thanks Hugo,

    It seems to me that all the changes applied to make it work turn it into more of an ara waza* Tenchi Nage. I don't like to get bogged down in names rather than content, but it seems to make Sumi Otoshi as a separate entity redundant.
    Totally agreed however, you should approach kihon as the foundation which teaches you the principles and concepts of techniques in general.

    When you're tested on kihon, you perform kihon, when training for yourself or during randori you should endeavour to apply principles (not specific techniques) as such almost everything you do will be a henka waza of some description.

    When training using the principle based approach, don't think anout what techniques you can use for a given situation, use the principles of techiques to drive your actual application IE the principle of corner dropping your uke, it then doesn't matter how you corner drop, just so long as you do.

    I mentioned ara waza.. this principle closes the opportunity for uke to make breakfalls because you don't create an opportunity, technique therefore becomes very short, circles become very small, make sure uke is aware that you intend to train this way before you actually do. It's only polite lol.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler

  8. #8
    Ignorami's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So the kihon form of Sumi Otoshi is teaching the principle of the corner drop? I can live with that.

    Thanks

    P.S. I kind of hope I never meet you in real life, because I get the impression you're British - your real accent will never live up to the amazing American one I've given you in my head.

  9. #9
    Rock Ape's Avatar
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    Just a point on tenshi nage.

    The principle of that waza is similar but different in that it uses a one up one down motion to entrap body motion and create kuzushi.

    Tenshi nage's principles stem from jo technique. You'll note that tenshi nage and omote iriminage look very similar but their origins are quite different. Irimi nage's are drawn, in part, from sword techniques.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler

  10. #10
    Rock Ape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignorami View Post
    I kind of hope I never meet you in real life, because I get the impression you're British - your real accent will never live up to the amazing American one I've given you in my head.
    Now you're sounding like a fag..

    Stop already.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler

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