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  1. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 2:46am

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Waki Gatame

    I keep noticing a common thread that many people here feel this is a low percentage move that is highly ineffective. I have done some "looking about" and I think I see the problem.

    Lets look at two VERY bad examples.

    YouTube- Waki Gatame

    YouTube- judo club gardanne: waki gatame

    Now, lets look at the basics from the Kodokan:

    YouTube- Waki Gatame

    (Notice at the end how it is used in Shiai, and why its now banned.)

    Now, who wants to comment on the major differences in the video?

    Oh, here is a clue, the principles of the cross body arm lock apply to waki gatame too.
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  2. CrackFox is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 3:14am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Let me put it this way: Waki Gatame as I've been taught it is a low percentage move. We have a jujutsu club attached to my judo club, every bloody combo we practice there seems to end in a retarded Waki Gatame that requires uke to pause after their last move and be completely compliant. I imagine this is most peoples experience of the lock, as it doesn't really get taught as a randori move.

    Also, is it really illegal, or is taking somebody down with their elbow locked what's illegal? If you did Waki Gatame to somebody who was trying to turtle would it be OK?
  3. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 3:23am

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Let me put it this way: Waki Gatame as I've been taught it is a low percentage move. We have a jujutsu club attached to my judo club, every bloody combo we practice there seems to end in a retarded Waki Gatame that requires uke to pause after their last move and be completely compliant. I imagine this is most peoples experience of the lock, as it doesn't really get taught as a randori move.

    Also, is it really illegal, or is taking somebody down with their elbow locked what's illegal? If you did Waki Gatame to somebody who was trying to turtle would it be OK?
    Did you look at the three videos with the context of the answer to your question? The problems are there to see, and correct.

    Yes, it is really illegal to lock a persons arm and take them to the mat with it. I would not have said it were it not so. Sato is seriously injured in the video.

    Waki (ushiro waki gatame) against the turtle is very effective, more so because turtles are much tighter in the real world than the ones you see in seminar clips.
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  4. CrackFox is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 3:39am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Yes, it is really illegal to lock a persons arm and take them to the mat with it. I would not have said it were it not so. Sato is seriously injured in the video.
    I wasn't trying to say that you said something incorrect, I was just asking for some clarification. You said Notice at the end how it is used in Shiai, and why its now banned. and I wanted to know if you meant just that particular way of using it, or Waki Gatame in general.

    Oh yeah, and to answer your original question about the videos. It looks a bit like n one they've got their weight armpit-to-armpit, to allow them to pin uke more solidly, and in the other they've got armpit/ribs to elbow which puts more pressure on the elbow.
  5. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 3:51am

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    I wasn't trying to say that you said something incorrect, I was just asking for some clarification. You said Notice at the end how it is used in Shiai, and why its now banned. and I wanted to know if you meant just that particular way of using it, or Waki Gatame in general.

    Oh yeah, and to answer your original question about the videos. It looks a bit like n one they've got their weight armpit-to-armpit, to allow them to pin uke more solidly, and in the other they've got armpit/ribs to elbow which puts more pressure on the elbow.
    The new rules are if the joint lock is applied standing you have to stay standing. It it is applied on the mat you have to stay on the mat (that one seems weird.)

    You have the problems with the videos correct. Less obvious is that in the first two, tori is not clamping the locked arm with his own arm. Like squeezing your knees together for Juji gatame, that is a critical but often overlooked part of waki gatame.
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  6. CrackFox is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 4:06am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Less obvious is that in the first two, tori is not clamping the locked arm with his own arm. Like squeezing your knees together for Juji gatame, that is a critical but often overlooked part of waki gatame.
    I've been taught an almost hands-free Waki in the past. Pull the arm out so the biceps is over one of your thighs, the forearm over the other, and the elbow pointing up. Then you bend down into a very low squat with your torso horizontal. I've never pulled that one off.
  7. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 4:08am

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    I've been taught an almost hands-free Waki in the past. Pull the arm out so the biceps is over one of your thighs, the forearm over the other, and the elbow pointing up. Then you bend down into a very low squat with your torso horizontal. I've never pulled that one off.
    I don't see how you could. Wrist control in Waki Gatame is as important as it is in Juji Gatame.
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  8. CrackFox is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 4:39am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    I don't see how you could. Wrist control in Waki Gatame is as important as it is in Juji Gatame.
    In fairness, I've probably got it wrong. It was at my old judo club, and the instructor only demonstrated it once after the class had ended and somebody asked about the grading syllabus.
  9. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 4:40am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    THANK YOU for the wakigatame input Mr. Tripp! Now I just need a Coach Josh video on this and my life is complete. My copy of Vital Judo shows waki-gatame from standing as well, and using it was one of the only handful of times that I actually "ipponed" someone in practice while training with one of the regional champion judo teams.

    I had to apply it extremely slowly as I don't think my partner even knew what I was even doing, and in the end I let it go because he wouldn't tap and I didn't want to crank it. I never really tried it again after that because I figured unfamiliarity could mean potential injury.
  10. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 7:28am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From the IJF Home Page on rules:

    http://www.intjudo.eu/?Menu=Static_P...d=7&main=12#27

    Quote Originally Posted by Section 16 Entry into newaza
    c)
    When one contestant obtains some considerable effect by applying a Shime-waza or Kansetsu-waza in the standing position and then changes without interruption to Newaza.
    And

    Quote Originally Posted by 27. Prohibited acts and penalties

    (31)
    To fall directly to the Tatami while applying or attempting to apply techniques such as Ude-hishigi-waki-gatame.

    (31 Appendix)
    To attempt such throws as Harai-goshi, Uchi-mata, etc., with only one hand gripping the opponent's lapel from a position resembling Ude-hishigi-waki-gatame (in which the wrist of the opponent is trapped beneath the thrower's armpit) and deliberately falling, face down, onto the Tatami is likely to cause injury and will be penalised. No intent to throw an opponent cleanly onto his back is a dangerous action and will be treated in the same way as Ude-hishigi-waki-gatame.
    So it should be legal to attempt an arm lock that takes you're opponent into newazza with an armlock to finish it so long as it is a skilful entry and you don't fall directly into the lock. Practically speaking how the ref interprets this is impossible to anticipate but I've certainly used waki gatame and not been penalised before and we have qualified ref's in the class.
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