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  1. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 3:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Two words; Combat Sambo
    From what I've seen, Combat Sambo does really seem to be the very model of a three dimensional fighting system.
    Too bad it's rare as horse's teeth around here.
    The fool thinks himself immortal,
    If he hold back from battle;
    But old age will grant him no truce,
    Even if spears spare him.
  2. Uncle Skippy is offline

    See my tongue. SEE IT!

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 3:18pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
      Style: BJJ, MT, TKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    It amazes me how many people are unable to make these distinctions...or how many people are unable to make the subtle paradigm shift from sport training to self-defense training. I say subtle because it is not a leap from one category to the other, but rather just a change of focus, while maintaining the same training methodology.
    One thing I've come to learn from you DA is the context of Vunak's videos. I first looked at the videos and thought the guy was a bit crazy and advocating teh deadly. It took a couple viewings get past my preconceived notions and see that he was in fact advocating legitimate grappling and adding biting (and other techniques) as a supplement to a good grappling base.

    I've come to learn from my time training and especially my time here is the concept of a 'delivery system'. For me, the subtle change between sport training and self defense is follow-through. I get in a position of 'control' which puts allows me to follow-through with other techniques.

    Arts which focus on the self-defense techniques (biting, groin strikes, eye gouges, etc...) without training a good, SOLID delivery system will have problems should they ever need to come into use.
  3. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 3:19pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nightowl View Post
    I started a thread awhile back on whether or not wakigatame was 'the deadly' of judo or not. It seems like it actually might be to an extent....but its iffy rule status messes things up a bit. Oh and Hansokumake at 0:20 in the video.
    Waki Gatame is very effective. I use it in ne waza frequently. Standing armbars are effective as well, but I found Waki Gatame and Hara Gatame to be very useful in ne waza. Hardly anyone expects them, and they apply a lot of pressure quickly when done correctly.

    As Mark noted, incorrect training methods are the main problem.

    As far as self defense goes, imagine applying Waki Gatame like the Korean did to Saito.

    Ben Reinhardt
  4. CarlosJesena is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2010 8:27pm


     Style: BJJ, TKD, Lifting+Cardio

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    Uh...no...ITF is not like the Kyokushin of TKD. There is no Kyokushin of TKD and if there was, it would be the ruleset that allows full-contact kicks to the head and body...the WTF.

    I lol at you.

    LOL.
    Dude I am WTF TKD. As far as I know, there's no "real full contact". Which is why I started training MMA. Over here ITF is the one that's the more "hardcore" TKD that uses hands and spars harder. Hrm, strange. I may be mistaken, though.
  5. Lindz is online now

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2010 1:26am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Two words; Combat Sambo
    да!!!
  6. Mtripp is online now
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2010 5:05am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    From what I've seen, Combat Sambo does really seem to be the very model of a three dimensional fighting system.
    Too bad it's rare as horse's teeth around here.
    Well, its rare because of the lack of qualified people to teach it, and a proper marketing program to get it out there.

    The idea that in Sambo there is a logical and safe progression from simple grappling, to grappling with basic submissions, to grappling with advanced submissions and strikes, to MMA; that is where I would place the focus and let the mice beat a path to the door....
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  7. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2010 8:20am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlosJesena View Post
    Dude I am WTF TKD. As far as I know, there's no "real full contact".
    Do you understand what the term "full contact" means?

    Because Olympic Taekwondo, by definition, as defined by its ruleset, is full contact.

    ITF competition, by defintion, as defined by its ruleset, is not.
  8. keyoz is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2010 11:16am


     Style: No-Gi BJJ/MMA/MT noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry for not participating in the discussion for some time- Iíve been drinking for the last 2 days.
    Quote Originally Posted by adskibullus View Post
    i live in the UK and work in construction so you probally have stole my job at one point ;-)
    Nah- I havenít worked in construction while Iíve been in the UK- must've been my cousin (who BTW is a failed Fedor clone). :smile:
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    If you are quoting from the "History" of Gracie JJ that I think you are quoting from, anything related to Judo I'd take with a grain of salt.
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    This mini-essay is of course without references, so take it for what it's worth. Anyone who does not read Japanese and not spent years going through Japanese Judo history in the native language is not going to have the clearest picture of the process that happened in Japan regarding Judo or other martial arts. And that would include me.
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    All one has to do is read Kano's works about the ultimate aims of Judo. Judoinfo has a lot of Kano's writings translated, I'd start there.
    Noted. I donít have access to any works on Judo history so I really appreciate this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    As to the rest, it is the same flummery we have heard for years. Kano learned the core truth that you ignore at your peril, which is "the way you defeat the "too deadly to spar" people is with all the safe things you mastered in Randori/Shiai."
    I believe that in our times, with current protective equipment there is very little left that canít really be practiced ďaliveĒ, or close to it. Thatís what I was getting at when I was talking about Judo atemi and leglocks that exits only in the kata. Iíve wrote about T3H D34DLY leglocks being removed from Judo, because I think its quite obvious that leglocks are NOT ďto deadly to trainĒ. Iím not in any way ignoring the fact that itís the bread and butter techniques that usually win the fight. To me the lack of atemi in randori/shiai is particularly damaging to teaching the art as a way of self-defense, because in my opinion without some striking skills its quite tough to get into the clinching range that judo excels at.
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    Before you ever post on Bullshido again, consider that Paul Vunak is waiting to tear your carotid out with his teeth.
    I donít think he'd travel all the way to do thatÖunless um, he can turn into a transoceanic bat. In any case from now on Iíll be eating garlic while posting Ė thanks for the heads up. :smile:
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    It amazes me how many people are unable to make these distinctions...or how many people are unable to make the subtle paradigm shift from sport training to self-defense training. I say subtle because it is not a leap from one category to the other, but rather just a change of focus, while maintaining the same training methodology.
    I believe MAís purpose was and should be first and foremost personal protection, so saying that its not a great leap to change the focus of training from competitive sport to self-defense is just wrong- it should be the other way around.
    Quote Originally Posted by FictionPimp View Post
    Seems to me that Kano wanted a system that was useful for self defense. Why else would he be encouraging the eventual adaptation of striking into competition and randori. BTW, with modern safety gear, I don't see why this could not be possible and still stay within the spirit of judo.
    THIS.
    Quote Originally Posted by FictionPimp View Post
    That was basically what I was thinking. I was just going to say MMA with Gi's and a bunch of Japanese words, bowing, and snobbery.
    Hey that sounds just like this one MA called Kudo.:smile:
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2010 11:21am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by keyoz View Post
    I believe MAís purpose was and should be first and foremost personal protection, so saying that its not a great leap to change the focus of training from competitive sport to self-defense is just wrong- it should be the other way around.
    A couple things:

    1) What you believe is bullshit

    2) What you believe does not matter.

    3) What you believe is not historically, logically, or socially correct at all, and specifically not in the matter in which you're speaking
  10. keyoz is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2010 12:02pm


     Style: No-Gi BJJ/MMA/MT noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm quite ok with (2), but doesnít (1) = (3)?

    Could you direct me to a reliable online reading material that would address the historical and social incorrectness of my statement? I live in a country where reading materials concerning martial arts are really hard to come by. I'm not asking for reading material on logic- that would probably go over my head.
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