6/28/2010 2:20pm, #31
keyoz wrote:"Ok. As my Judo history knowledge is weak at best I'll quote.
Originally Posted by George Wang. “History of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu." Gracie-Kimura figth in 1951.
What he (Kimura) saw reminded him of the earlier judo methods that were rough and tumble. Prewar judo had body locks, leg locks, unusual choking techniques that were discarded because they were not legal in contest judo, which had evolved slowly over the years
Removed as in not being taught anymore(by most couches/sensei/instructors), because you cant use them in a competition. Today’s randori is mostly a preparation for shiai so it usually doesn’t allow techniques that are banned in competitions, preventing the players from developing "bad habits" that may make them loose in the shiai, but are a viable options in a fight. I know that in Japan people teach Judo with its kata containing atemi and all that, but those things are hard to come by outside Japan, and are not really trained "alive" (as far as I know). I hope you’re not angry because some noob dared to criticize your art. I really like Judo, the little I've learned it, and would love to come back to it one day. I simply don’t like Judos competition rules."
I'm not angry, I just asked a question.
If you are quoting from the "History" of Gracie JJ that I think you are quoting from, anything related to Judo I'd take with a grain of salt.
In any case, in the early days of Judo it WAS also called Kano Ju Jutsu (or Ju Jitsu or Jiu Jitsu...romaji was not standardized back then). Whether Kano actually used that term is unclear to me. There is no doubt in my mind, that other more "rough and tumble" methods were used generally in ju jutsu matches and practice, how much so in in normal Kodokan Judo randori I have not seen referenced.
Kano wanted Judo to be an educational activity, as in physical education of Japanese origin, something that would fit within the culture of Japan. He also liked and encouraged other western sports. Judo was introduced and made mandatory in the Japanese school system at one point early on. One key selling point was that Kodokan Judo contrasted to the various ju jutsu ryu at the time had a set of standardized rules and could be practiced by school children relatively safely. Thus the "removal" of atemi, leglocks, neck cranks, etc. from normal randori practice, for sure for kids.
Judo as a sport/competitive activity became very popular given that all Japanese kids had to do it (I think Kendo was choice as well), with programs and competitions between schools through college age very popular and widespread.
At the same time, Kano wanted to preserve the koryu jujutsu etc of Japan as well, and preserve Judo as an effective fighting/self defense art. This was still happening at the Kodokan, however, once Japan lost WW2, and was occupied by the US, all martial arts activities were banned by General McArthur, Judo as well. The Kodokan had to basically re-invent Judo as a pure sport for it to survive. Thus the school form of Judo (which was hugely popular and widespread in Japan, way more than the self defense/fighting/preserve koryu arts track) became what we see of Judo today.
This mini-essay is of course without references, so take it for what it's worth. Anyone who does not read Japanese and not spent years going through Japanese Judo history in the native language is not going to have the clearest picture of the process that happened in Japan regarding Judo or other martial arts. And that would include me.
So, in my opinion, Judo was never intended to be a pure fighting art, so, of course, some of it's effectiveness was lost in that aspect. But really, you need to define "effective", and the context in which you mean "watered down". Koryu bujutsu/compound fighting systems from Japan that offered comprehensive training in weapons etc. were very effective in their own context. But who carries spears,bows, swords or rides horses into battle now?
6/28/2010 2:31pm, #32
Here we go again. Sanda/Sanshou has morphed. It is silly to call it a rule set only now. It has morphed into both. There are CMA schools that compete in Sanda/Sanshou that are what you cal TMA. We have Tai Chi, Xingyi, and Hun Gar players that do weapons that compete in this rule set.
There are schools that just teach Sanda/Sanshou as an art, similar to the name kickboxing, that involve zero weapons. That's why you will see Sanda/Sanshou translated as Chinese Kickboxing.
Think BJJ and Judo. If you read the history, BJJ came form Judo. As ti grew and morphed it owuld be dumb to seriously call it Brazilian Judo.
That's what Sanda and Sanshou has gone through and is continuing to go through. People have dropped forms and weapons and put it back into the ring. Some schools are in the middle trying to balance both. Then you have the full on traditional schools that train for the rule set.
6/28/2010 2:33pm, #33
Well, ok, I have to step into this one.
First, lets talk about "Judo." That's important because today we are no longer speaking about Kano Jujitsu or even Kodokan Judo. When we speak of Judo we are speaking of it as defined by the IOC and the IJF. So, no, leg locks and the like are not in Judo.
Yes, there were many techniques in Kano Jujitsu (used here as a term to describe the transition period,) that were not put in Kodokan Judo. Mainly because if people were getting hurt, Kano took it out. Body triangles were banned (dojime) because Kano saw people pissing blood from them. His vision was to have people train hard, but as injury free as possible.
However there is NO doubt that Kano wanted his Judo to be an effective form of fighting in the real world. His idea of "budo" was to be of sound body and mind, and to be able to protect yourself.
It is of interest to note that the IJF a few years ago issued a directive that ALL Judo schools should be teaching EFFECTIVE self-defense to its members.
As to the rest, it is the same flummery we have heard for years. Kano learned the core truth that you ignore at your peril, which is "the way you defeat the "too deadly to spar" people is with all the safe things you mastered in Randori/Shiai."
Its still true."Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
6/28/2010 5:05pm, #34
I'd add that it was to of sound mind and body to be able to be of benefit to the greater society and the world as a whole.
My point is to clarify things for non-judoka who do not know relevent historical details or context, so things do not get taken out of context. When talking to non-judoka about Judo, and Judo beginners, a lot of times we take things for granted in terms of understanding.
Edit: Here is the link to the discussion of the Santel matches and Kano's controversy with one of his most respected students.
This ties in with my comments in another thread regarding actually being able to do original research about Judo, in Japanese, and access to original sources.
Last edited by BKR; 6/28/2010 5:27pm at .
6/28/2010 6:43pm, #35
I used "leg locks" as they came to mind. My point was Judo today is a very different thing from what Kano created.
Yes, I saw what the IJF put out for self-defense. I know one of the people in it; yes it was awful.
I will say again that the BEST video on how to apply Judo in a real world self-defense situation is this one:
YouTube- Basic Insticts of Self-Defense--Trailer
The key here is watch that trailer. Notice how easy those techniques will be IF you are doing randori and shiai as you should."Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
6/28/2010 7:14pm, #36
Ben I think you forgot to paste in the link. Do you have a source for Kano wanting judo to be effective for ffighting/self protection (which ever wording you prefer). The jf regulars seem to get pretty hostile anytime someone suggests judo should be usable for that.
6/28/2010 8:09pm, #37The fool thinks himself immortal,
If he hold back from battle;
But old age will grant him no truce,
Even if spears spare him.
6/29/2010 2:29am, #38
In point of fact, when trained correctly, Waki Gatame is very effective and can be applied with great effect. In truth the real problem with it is that people try and use it as a "restraining" hold. We would not use Juji Gatame for that purpose either. It can do serious damage to the arm if applied with force and vigor.
The problem is, as with many things, the lack of correct teaching methods."Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
6/29/2010 2:32am, #39
I suggest "Mind over Muscle" which is a collection of writings by Kano himself. Then you can direct them to the IJF directive about teaching effective Self-defense.
You will not change their minds; but at least you will know where the facts are.
6/29/2010 4:22am, #40I very much like the concept of having a handful of techniques to teach people applicable in a wide variety of situations, but... wakegatame? That's not exactly the easiest move or the highest percentage move out there.
Last edited by nightowl; 6/29/2010 4:25am at .