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  1. keyoz is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2010 3:18pm


     Style: No-Gi BJJ/MMA/MT noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you all for participating in a noob thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    You're looking it in too broad of terms.
    It really depends on what the sport it's being turned into is.
    Your right about that, but it seams that always with the transformation to sport something is lost. The question is Ė was it something of value.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    On the other hand, it also gave San Da:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8nCgNTByiE
    Which in turn offers us a whole lot more than any TCMA ever did.
    San Da/San Shou is great, but as far as I know it doesnít offer any weapons training whichís an important part of TCMA.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    THE K-POP!! MAKE IT STOP!! PLEASE MAKE IT STOP!
    Quote Originally Posted by nomamao View Post
    Maybe Two Man sets could still be used, because good choreography is always a fun watch.
    Thatís what kung-fu flicks are for.:tongue5:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard619 View Post
    What kind of school have you trained at where they didn't teach how to punch properly?
    I havenít but my friend has trained in some WTF place and he couldnít punch for ****. To be honest I cant punch either but heís punching was even worst than mine and I never trained any striking focused MA.
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    If you are going to talk about Judo, then you need to get your facts straight. Leg locks were removed from competitions way before WW2.
    You has the right. I need to read more on Judo history. Nevertheless its still true that many of valuable techs (not only leg locks) were removed over time. I would venture to say that if those techniques werenít removed the Gracies would now be a prominent Judo family. (Please donít kill me Iím a noob).
    Quote Originally Posted by MGM View Post
    The Youtube ninja training looks like it is showing how to grab a woman's breast. Is that a sport or a street application, and if so how practical is it?
    Well some regard sex as a sport but Ninjutsu is supposed to be above the sport applications, so Iím little confused as well.:lol:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rubberduck View Post
    And what do you know about Savates grappling element? Or removing also elbows and knees?

    There is this art called Savate-Defense, which still teaches all t3h d34dly.
    I read some time ago that Savate had grappling elements taken from contacts (read as fights) with the ďParisian styleĒ wrestlers and wrestlers cross training in Savate. In all honesty I didnít knew there were any elbow/knee strikes in Savate. If some guys train those techs as well than more power to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    sportification<-- if this is actually a word
    Well youíre the Brit Ė its your language. Iím just one of those damned Poles that come to your country to steal your work. As Iíve now disclosed my nationality I expect to be called a dumb polack, read polish jokes or be reminded that ďPoland cannot into airĒ in future posts.:lol:
  2. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2010 7:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by keyoz View Post

    San Da/San Shou is great, but as far as I know it doesnít offer any weapons training whichís an important part of TCMA.
    BRRRRRRT.
    Wrong.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3Yvq...next=1&index=2
    Knives start about a minute in.
    They don't teach you any three-section cudgel forms, but the PLA's San Da program does contain weapon techniques. I can't seem to find any videos of it youtube at the moment, but I've seen instructional videos of PLA combatives for how to murder people with knives and riot shield + tonfa drills for the military police.
    The fool thinks himself immortal,
    If he hold back from battle;
    But old age will grant him no truce,
    Even if spears spare him.
  3. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2010 8:15pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BKR
    If you are going to talk about Judo, then you need to get your facts straight. Leg locks were removed from competitions way before WW2.

    You has the right. I need to read more on Judo history. Nevertheless its still true that many of valuable techs (not only leg locks) were removed over time. I would venture to say that if those techniques weren’t removed the Gracies would now be a prominent Judo family. (Please don’t kill me I’m a noob)."

    So which techniques were removed ? When?

    Ben
  4. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2010 8:39pm


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not a judo player but I don't think the moves are removed from judo as a whole, just from being used in competition.
  5. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2010 1:33am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by M1K3 View Post
    I'm not a judo player but I don't think the moves are removed from judo as a whole, just from being used in competition.
    That would be correct, however, in the case of leg locks, removal from randori and shiai effectively took them out of everyday Judo. Not that we know for sure how common they were back in the early 20th century in Judo.

    The only leg lock officially in Judo is in the Katame No Kata. Wrist techniques are also preserved in the Goshin Jutsu (no kata).

    Ben
  6. meat monkey is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2010 2:50am


     Style: Judo, ITF, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As far as the ITF thing goes, one of the first posts had kind of the right idea.

    Basically, WTF is (theoretically) full contact, with limited score zones and no punching to the head. ITF you can strike anywhere abover the belt (save for the back) with punches or kicks, however the strikes are theoreticaly semi-contact only. (I havent trained much WTF, feel free to correct)

    The definition of this sem-contact can vary between fairy-punching to verging on full contact. A good example of this was about 8 years ago now between myself and another lad of Irish extraction who both loved to punch on, quite a lot. The ref was actually a visiting couch who was the Oceanic champ at the time, looked at both of us, and basically made the mental decision that he would let it go, as long as we both seemed comfortable. It was great, we both beat the living hell out of each other, to the consternation of some of the on-lookers. I walked off unsure if I was a little punch-drunk or my contacts had come out somehow during the match.

    Great times.

    I have however also come close to (and gone past) disqualification. I find the ambiguous nature of the ITF scoring rules to be troublesome, and this is part of the reason why I am now looking around for some other striking to pick up (probably MT I guess, I have done some freestyle kickboxing some fair few years ago :P) until I move to China for a while next year. Then bet your sweet arse I am trying to find a good San Shou school when I get there.

    Bloody hell, something of an essay there.
  7. Cuchulain is offline

    Keeping you safe from Mongolians

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2010 3:05am


     Style: Sanda/Taijiquan *Hiatus*

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by keyoz View Post
    San Da/San Shou is great, but as far as I know it doesnít offer any weapons training whichís an important part of TCMA.
    Sanda/San Shou is just a ruleset. Competitors are from TCMA schools, so more than likely they will have waved some sort of weapon around.


    As to the original question: I do think not being prepared for groin shots does take something away from Martial Sportification. Like someone said earlier, delivering them is easy enough but knowing how to keep the golden target out of harms way is a little more difficult. We've seen some huge, tough blokes stopped in their tracks with a low blow. Now imagine if they didn't have cups on.

    YouTube- a tribute to groin shots
  8. keyoz is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2010 7:03am


     Style: No-Gi BJJ/MMA/MT noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by keyoz View Post
    steal your work
    Thatís "steal your job". Lrn2English you damn polack.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    Thatís defense against weapons - not exactly what I was thinking about. Many martial arts that donít have weapons training (as in weapons used to attack someone) teach those things. I believe I've seen a clip of Rorion Gracie showing some baton defenses. Or does BJJ offer any weapons training (again as in weapons used to attack someone) that I'm unaware of?

    Is quite ironic that the clip comes from some polish guy's (or maybe gal's as the username could suggests a female) youtube account, so it should be me showing it to you. I was actually confused for a second thinking that youtube translated the video description for me (partly because of the use of English or English-derived words that have ďbetterĒ polish equivalents).
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    They don't teach you any three-section cudgel forms
    I've always seen the 3SS as an unpractical weapon. I've heard that its main use was for hitting a person behind a shield, but I'm not sure how true is that.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    PLA's San Da program does contain weapon techniques. I can't seem to find any videos of it youtube at the moment, but I've seen instructional videos of PLA combatives for how to murder people with knives and riot shield + tonfa drills for the military police.
    If its true than I'll admit that I was wrong about San Da not teaching weapons. Have you by any chance found the clip?
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    So which techniques were removed ? When?
    Ok. As my Judo history knowledge is weak at best I'll quote.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Wang. ďHistory of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu." Gracie-Kimura figth in 1951.
    What he (Kimura) saw reminded him of the earlier judo methods that were rough and tumble. Prewar judo had body locks, leg locks, unusual choking techniques that were discarded because they were not legal in contest judo, which had evolved slowly over the years
    Removed as in not being taught anymore(by most couches/sensei/instructors), because you cant use them in a competition. Todayís randori is mostly a preparation for shiai so it usually doesnít allow techniques that are banned in competitions, preventing the players from developing "bad habits" that may make them loose in the shiai, but are a viable options in a fight. I know that in Japan people teach Judo with its kata containing atemi and all that, but those things are hard to come by outside Japan, and are not really trained "alive" (as far as I know). I hope youíre not angry because some noob dared to criticize your art. I really like Judo, the little I've learned it, and would love to come back to it one day. I simply donít like Judos competition rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
    Sanda/San Shou is just a ruleset. Competitors are from TCMA schools, so more than likely they will have waved some sort of weapon around.
    Iím pretty sure that in both China and US there are gyms that donít teach TCMA but train San Shou fighters. (Note: I donít consider wushu to be a TCMA).
  9. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2010 7:29am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is important to keep in mind that "TMAS" have lots of rules too. Rules like: you must perform this specific set of techniques in this specific order. Also, no fighting back allowed, period. This a more constrictive ruleset than any martial art put through the Olympic meat grinder currently has (that I can think of). And yes, in the name of sport many martial arts have been watered down.
  10. adskibullus is online now

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2010 1:54pm


     Style: Lifting heavy stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by keyoz View Post
    That’s "steal your job". Lrn2English you damn polack.
    i live in the UK and work in construction so you probally have stole my job at one point ;-)

    [quote=keyoz;2400464] Ok. As my Judo history knowledge is weak at best I'll quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by keyoz View Post
    Removed as in not being taught anymore(by most couches/sensei/instructors), because you cant use them in a competition. Today’s randori is mostly a preparation for shiai so it usually doesn’t allow techniques that are banned in competitions, preventing the players from developing "bad habits" that may make them loose in the shiai, but are a viable options in a fight. I know that in Japan people teach Judo with its kata containing atemi and all that, but those things are hard to come by outside Japan, and are not really trained "alive" (as far as I know). I hope you’re not angry because some noob dared to criticize your art. I really like Judo, the little I've learned it, and would love to come back to it one day. I simply don’t like Judos competition rules.
    The two biggest judo organisations BJA and BJC both teach kata. i dont enjoy it and its not practised in a live fashion, But still enables me to learn a few leg locks and ive always found that the kata is a good way to learn the mechanics of the throw/ technique.
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