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  1. W. Rabbit is offline
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    You know me...the snakebite hiss, the Devil's Grip, the Iron Fist

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2010 9:51am

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     Style: Hung Fist, BJJ, Qi Gong

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Mushin and Der is way too angry and judgmental

    Quote Originally Posted by helmutlvx View Post
    This contradicts your previous statement about martial arts being about self-defense. I'm not trying to be confrontational, let's just make sure nobody twists up their own tongue.

    Also, kata have very little to do with "self-defense". Doing some kata in a gym with some other people will do nothing to prepare you mentally for a combat situation.
    You twisted your own tongue :)

    Kata/forms absolutely prepare you mentally for a combat situation, merely by slowly conditioning away the necessity for using thought to initiate/control technique. If you want you could call forms training "unpreparing the mind", this is Mu shin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin

    -ED
  2. helmutlvx is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2010 10:04am


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    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    You twisted your own tongue :)

    Kata/forms absolutely prepare you mentally for a combat situation, merely by slowly conditioning away the necessity for using thought to initiate/control technique. If you want you could call forms training "unpreparing the mind", this is Mu shin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin

    -ED
    I call bullshit. For me, throwing out some general Zen knowledge isn't an effective way to make a compelling argument.

    Kata are useful in their own way, but through bunkai and kumite. Not the forms themselves. I'm going to stop right there because that dead horse has been beaten enough in the last few days.
  3. W. Rabbit is offline
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    You know me...the snakebite hiss, the Devil's Grip, the Iron Fist

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2010 11:21am

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmutlvx View Post
    I call bullshit. For me, throwing out some general Zen knowledge isn't an effective way to make a compelling argument..
    It wasn't general, it was a specific concept, and I wasn't making an argument at all, I was relaying information about a martial concept thousands of years older than both of us. Didn't make it up myself. You can choose to call mushin bullshit but it is half the purpose of forms training, in or out of martial arts. Painting, swordfighting, cooking...mu shin. Go read some Musashi.
  4. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/21/2010 2:05pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmutlvx View Post
    I counter with boxing. You argument is invalid.
    Developing into a *good* boxer involves throwing thousands of punches and dodging thousands more to train the mind to be instinctive when doing both. That is mu shin. A very old concept that is about as critical to boxing (western or eastern) as any other martial art. The best fighters never engage and begin wondering "what technique should I use?"...this fighter is quickly beaten regardless of the details. The best fighters will respond intuitively, complete mind/body as they've been trained, from a combination of the endless practice of forms combined with sanda (shadowboxing) and progressive sparring.


    Quote Originally Posted by helmutlvx View Post
    edit: ED, would you mind explaining more in detail what you think about this "mushin" and how it applies to fighting, thanks.
    I could not explain it nearly as well as Musashi in the Book of Five Rings, Bruce Lee in his writings/interviews, or the others who have written books about Zen/Chan concepts in fighting but I will certainly blab about it. Mushin is a very well known concept closely tied to eastern martial arts, the samurai/bushido training/code, and way more than I could fit into a thread. Mushin isn't even limited to martial arts. Fighter pilots rely on mu-shin to land on aircraft carriers for instance.

    My own humble observations about mushin: It's the emptiness of thought when performing a mastered skill, the ultimate physical representation of a technique. Great boxers definitely exhibit mushin, when they instinctively dodge and counterpunch accurately it is because they've hammered those techniques so much they reach a point where the timing and movement is completely intuitive. Compare the novice boxer's first awkward punch and poor balance to the power, speed, and precision of someone who has trained to the points where they've "unlearned" their techniques, and now those techniques seem as natural as breathing. That is mu shin "no mind" fighting. It is likely something only the most dedicated of martial artists (hardcore amateurs and professionals) could accomplish. I definitely do not claim to have this but mushin should be the ultimate goal of any martial artist, if you believe in the wisdom of the ancient fighters like Musashi, who was a master of two sword combat technique and wrote extensively on it.

    -ED
  5. helmutlvx is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2010 2:31pm


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    I agree, actually.

    I thought you were going for some kind of "Practice kata, get FOOM" angle, but apparently this wasn't the case.
  6. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/21/2010 2:39pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmutlvx View Post
    I agree, actually.

    I thought you were going for some kind of "Practice kata, get FOOM" angle, but apparently this wasn't the case.
    I could not find any Youtube videos on FOOM but if it doesn't have ground fighting it won't work against MMA or in UFC. That's what all the Youtube videos said.
  7. helmutlvx is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2010 4:21pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    I could not find any Youtube videos on FOOM but if it doesn't have ground fighting it won't work against MMA or in UFC. That's what all the Youtube videos said.
  8. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/23/2010 10:18pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by helmutlvx View Post
    I call bullshit. For me, throwing out some general Zen knowledge isn't an effective way to make a compelling argument.
    How do you think I feel about it...and I'm a Zen teacher in Buddhist temple!
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/23/2010 10:34pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    If you want you could call forms training "unpreparing the mind", this is Mu shin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin
    No, you couldn't.

    Do not try to dress up inferior training methods using Buddhist terms that you actually do not understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    It wasn't general, it was a specific concept, and I wasn't making an argument at all, I was relaying information about a martial concept thousands of years older than both of us.
    A specific concept that you do not know anything about, other than what you've read in cheap martial arts magazines and seen in kung fu movies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    Didn't make it up myself. You can choose to call mushin bullshit but it is half the purpose of forms training, in or out of martial arts. Painting, swordfighting, cooking...mu shin. Go read some Musashi.
    Mushin is not bullshit.

    Saying it is half the purpose of karate kata is. It shows you neither understand mushin, nor karate kata.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    Everything starts with the form, and only when the forms are mastered (and THEN discarded) can someone truly reach mu shin in a real world application.
    Wrong.

    Mushin can never be reached.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    This is not something anyone masters in just a few years.
    It is something they master in a moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    The best fighters will respond intuitively, complete mind/body as they've been trained, from a combination of the endless practice of forms combined with sanda (shadowboxing) and progressive sparring.
    This is not mushin. This is just training.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    I could not explain it nearly as well as Musashi in the Book of Five Rings, Bruce Lee in his writings/interviews, or the others who have written books about Zen/Chan concepts in fighting but I will certainly blab about it.
    Bruce and Mushashi evidently didn't explain it well, because you and countless others still don't get it.

    Bruce probably didn't even get it.

    If you had an actual clue about mushin, and you would know that blabbing about it is complete bullshit idiocy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    Mushin is a very well known concept closely tied to eastern martial arts, the samurai/bushido training/code, and way more than I could fit into a thread.
    Mushin is a very well known Japanese word used by people who have no idea what they are talking about but want to sound mystical and wise. It has absolutely nothing to do with Bushido.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    My own humble observations about mushin:
    are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    It's the emptiness of thought when performing a mastered skill, the ultimate physical representation of a technique.
    Lacking thought is not mushin. Empty thoughts are not truly empty. An "empty" thought is still a thought, and a mind empty of thought is brain-dead, comatose, a vegetable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    Great boxers definitely exhibit mushin, when they instinctively dodge and counterpunch accurately it is because they've hammered those techniques so much they reach a point where the timing and movement is completely intuitive.
    Instinct and reaction are not mushin. They're just by-products of training.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    Compare the novice boxer's first awkward punch and poor balance to the power, speed, and precision of someone who has trained to the points where they've "unlearned" their techniques, and now those techniques seem as natural as breathing.
    This is all just simple, basic training.

    It is not mushin.
    Novice boxer needs training.

    Advanced boxer has trained.

    Fancy Asian words have nothing to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    That is mu shin "no mind" fighting.
    "No Mind" fighting?

    Sounds like a good way to get killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    It is likely something only the most dedicated of martial artists (hardcore amateurs and professionals) could accomplish.
    No, it's likely that they wouldn't "accomplish" mushin, unless mushin is just an Asian word you're using to explain something that isn't mushin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Dragon View Post
    I definitely do not claim to have this but mushin should be the ultimate goal of any martial artist, if you believe in the wisdom of the ancient fighters like Musashi, who was a master of two sword combat technique and wrote extensively on it.
    Musashi wrote very little on mushin. He mentioned only a few times in passing. Most of his writing was very technical in nature.
    Last edited by Jiggle Butt; 6/23/2010 10:37pm at .
  10. W. Rabbit is offline
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    You know me...the snakebite hiss, the Devil's Grip, the Iron Fist

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 12:09am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're way too angry and judgmental to know anything about Zen, Buddhism, or anything they have to do with martial arts.

    Stop trolling in the nub forum btw.

    -ED
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