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  1. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 3:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have returned, BRIEFLY, as it has been told to me comments such as these need addressing. So, FOR A LIMITED TIME, address them I shall.

    I have cut and pasted into word then put them back. I am sorry if that is confusing to anyone.

    <<<Chuck said that his instructor’s system was initially some weird homebrew with red, white, and blue belts and all kinds of weirdness, which later morphed into a more conventional judo program. It’s unclear to me whether the normal senior/junior rules were necessarily followed in any detail. >>>

    No sir. Chuck said the martial art system taught there used that system. The Judo was USJA and used the USJA materials and guidelines.

    <<<Given the above, and given the fact that “kyu” is standard terminology for non-yudansha ranks in many JMAs, I don’t think that “sankyu” is a very confusing term no matter what the USJA may do for juniors. >>>

    I am sorry, but this is simply not relevant. The ranks and memberships were claimed to be from USJA. As such they would follow the USJA system and policy. I have invited several high ranking people from USJA Ohio Judo to come here, review my work, and explain to you that what you are hearing is spot on.

    <<<His profile, as cited, claimed that he attained “sankyu under an officially certified judo shodan” or something to this effect. The phrasing was interesting in that the assertion was explicit that his instructor held official rank, but was not explicit in asserting that Chunk’s own rank was registered.>>>

    His Coaches “certified shodan” was from USJA. As such, how USJA does things is VERY relevant to this discussion.

    <<<From what I read (in that long thread, I may well have missed some pertinent posts) it’s entirely possible that he only had a dojo rank of sankyu.>>>>

    Possible but does noting to deal with the problem of how he got on a Shiai mat with NO membership in the USJA at all.

    <<<If his instructor cannot be found in the records, then and only then was that account dishonest.>>>

    I took Chuck at his word that the man was in their USJA database. I have not looked, but I guess I should. However, whatever the Coach was or was not, doesn’t explain the problem of fighting in Shiai’s with no membership card.

    <<<As a 14-year-old kid you wear whatever belt your instructor tells you to wear and you're whatever rank your instructor tells you are. Maybe the instructor gets the organization paperwork done, maybe he doesn't. At such a low rank it barely matters.>>>

    This is a projection and not on point. The only question is how USJA does things, and I can assure you they are VERY strict on following their ranking system.

    <<<The USJA has very nice system for juniors -- in theory. But how many people actually follow it? Or, in the real world, distinguishes between the junior grades and the senior kyu grades? >>>

    EVERYONE in USJA does, as you will hear from some VERY high-ranking members in a bit.

    <<<Just as an example, I don't think my instructor even bothers with the paperwork below sankyu for seniors, and that's only so you qualify to get points at the USJF promotional Shiai. He certainly doesn't do formal tests for kyu ranks. You do your Kata in front of the board for Dan ranks once you have the points.>>>

    But we are not speaking about USJF or USJI. I do not think either of them has the junior program in place that USJA does.

    <<<I'm saying my instructor is a USJF/KDK rokudan with about 40 years of experience. He knows damn well what rank someone should be from observing Uchi komi, randori and other practice. At the kyu ranks, it's more about what division you should be fighting in than anything else.>>>

    I agree with you. However I suspect that when its time to promote someone, they will need to be a member of USJF, and have earned points with USJF, BEFORE they get ANY promotion with USJF.

    That is the point here…..
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
      #21
  2. Cuchulain is offline

    Keeping you safe from Mongolians

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 3:55pm


     Style: Sanda/Taijiquan *Hiatus*

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim View Post

    If I have to choose twenty good men against one possible liar, my choice is clear.
    Which is presumably to remain impartial.
      #22
  3. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 3:59pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Judo has some weird, complex politics. Although I cannot speak for Mr. Tripp, I'm pretty sure he has looked at this from all possible angles as to what possible scenarios could be in play. From my vantage point, I'd say that's essentially par for the course for anyone in his position. Although Mr. Tripp is a member of this site, when he writes anything whatsoever on the subject of Judo, he is speaking on behalf of the Judo powers that be. He is the authority on the subject.

    I personally think that when a high level examiner for Judo weighs in on the subject of rank and who has a history of being nothing but helpful and known to bend over backward to show impartiality, it's pretty damn damning when the response is not vague pleasantries but definitive.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 6/22/2010 4:06pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
      #23
  4. Rock Ape is offline
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    Watch and Shoot !

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 4:02pm

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mark..

    In your post you say
    "I have no other choice but to say that the story as related by Mr. Hardin is clearly false."
    [my bold highlight]

    Yet... You admit that you've not attempted to trace the instructor named by Chuck within the organisation's database thus presumably not made contact with said person in any attempt to verify what was presented to you - the memories of a person of some 25 years ago.

    In the interests of thoroughness, might I suggest that gets done.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
      #24
  5. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 4:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Stiglitz View Post
    Mark..

    In your post you say [my bold highlight]

    Yet... You admit that you've not attempted to trace the instructor named by Chuck within the organisation's database thus presumably not made contact with said person in any attempt to verify what was presented to you - the memories of a person of some 25 years ago.

    In the interests of thoroughness, might I suggest that gets done.
    To what end sir? Are we to investigate him next? Are we going to attempt to make him to blame?

    Are those of you who support Chuck so obtuse that you can not see that it is the Shiai on which this story hinges, and as told can NOT be true? He was never a member of USJI, yet he claims to have fought in Junior USJA events.

    That, could not have happened. Mark Hunter will be here soon. He has ran USJA Shiai's for over 30 years in Ohio. You do not have to take my word for it.

    Oh, and we are still waiting for Chuck to tell us the actual name of his club so I can check to see if it was a USJA certified Judo club or not. Chuck HIMSELF said he checked out the teacher with USJA so when I began this I didn't think I had to, AS CHUCK HIMSELF VOUCHED FOR THE MAN BY HIS OWN INVESTIGATION.

    Are you saying we can't take Chuck at his word?
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
      #25
  6. CoffeeFan is offline
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    Certified Personal Trainer and Drinker of Coffee

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 4:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    I know I'm going to get **** for this, but I don't yet see this as "Chuck lied". Chuck was 14-17 years old. Certainly at the time he had no reason not to believe his coach. If, and this is only IF, just relax before you guys get all frothy in the chops on me, his coach told him he had a certain rank, gave him a belt and a piece of paper and sent him on his way then that's not the same as Chuck lying about his experience.
    I imagine everyone will immediately start screaming about how I'm blind and refusing to see the light and all that, so just hold off on that for a minute. Has anyone attempted to verify any of the information about the club or the coach that Chuck listed or did it stop with just making sure Chuck was never listed with the USJA? Clearly Chuck does not have a legitimate USJA brown belt of any kind, that does not automatically make Chuck a liar. It just means he was wrong.
    Would anyone like to look into his coach and the club? I will do so, but I'm also once again clearly advocating on Chucks side, so that's probably no the best idea.
    Actually, it is quite possible that the instructor pocketed all the money and printed out his own certifications (thus negating any official rank) and Chuck simply didn't know. Especially considering he was only 15-16 at the time.

    I am curious to hear more about these tournaments he participated in: were they simply in house judo tournaments and the parents paid the promoter? Were they larger unsanctioned tournaments? Either he has completely fabricated his entire judo history or he was taken in by an instructor who claimed he gave official rank when he did not.

    Either way, the fiasco of the last few months has made me contemplate my involvement on this website.
      #26
  7. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 4:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeFan View Post
    Actually, it is quite possible that the instructor pocketed all the money and printed out his own certifications (thus negating any official rank) and Chuck simply didn't know. Especially considering he was only 15-16 at the time.

    I am curious to hear more about these tournaments he participated in: were they simply in house judo tournaments and the parents paid the promoter? Were they larger unsanctioned tournaments? Either he has completely fabricated his entire judo history or he was taken in by an instructor who claimed he gave official rank when he did not.

    Either way, the fiasco of the last few months has made me contemplate my involvement on this website.
    Again, I have NO DOUBT the man was issuing dojo papers. However, most people who do that do NOT take their people to Shiai's. Because you have to have membership cards with your rank on them to enter. It would be odd, would it not, to be a "Sankyu" while your rank card said you were a white belt?

    No, the problem is the claim of being a fighter in his youth. Even "in house" Judo Shiai require EVERYONE on the mat to have a membership card in one of the big three. IF JUST ONE PERSON ON THE MAT does not have that card then NO ONE is insured. Read the forms I linked to.

    Finally, this fiasco should NOT in any way change your feelings about this site. HOW this fiasco is handled, THAT should.....
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
      #27
  8. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 4:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
    Which is presumably to remain impartial.
    When the dentist says your kid has a cavity, and your kid says "no i don't", how long should you remain "impartial", and how long until the dentist tells you to get out of his office and take your business elsewhere?

    You just heard from certified examiner, referee and life member of the USJA and got a definitive professional opinion. What is there to be impartial about?

    I sought Mark's professional opinion on Hardin's Judo claims before I ever posted on the subject. I have been over it with him at length, and I can tell you that Mark came to the conclusion that, if Chuck were to confirm what he had claimed privately (about his Judo) in public, that no scenario existed in which he was doing anything but straight up lying to our faces.

    I would never have exposed Chuck to this if there were any such possibility of his innocence. Mark is correct, and I have no doubt that any senior agent or representitive of the USJA would concur. In any case, bringing in outside experts is the right thing to do.

    June really is Hardin The FuckUp month.

    *popcorn*
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
      #28
  9. battheo is offline

    Registered Member

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    Channel Islands
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 4:24pm


     Style: Quanfa

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In the YMAS thread, I think Chuck posted the place and dates of the tournaments he participated in. I'm afraid I can't recall them. Mark, are official records kept of these times and places? Would it be possible to check the records and see if Cy's tournaments even exist in offiial USJA history?

    He may well be lying, but it's not impossible that his coach was posing as a USJA representative and organising these thigs off his own back. Is it?

    I'm afraid I don't know enough about Judo to contribute anything more than questions. Sorry.
      #29
  10. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 4:28pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    When the dentist says your kid has a cavity, and your kid says "no i don't", how long should you remain "impartial", and how long until the dentist tells you to get out of his office and take your business elsewhere?

    You just heard from certified examiner, referee and life member of the USJA and got a definitive professional opinion. What is there to be impartial about?

    I sought Mark's professional opinion on Hardin's Judo claims before I ever posted on the subject. I have been over it with him at length, and I can tell you that Mark came to the conclusion that, if Chuck were to confirm what he had claimed privately (about his Judo) in public, that no scenario existed in which he was doing anything but straight up lying to our faces.

    I would never have exposed Chuck to this if there were any such possibility of his innocence. Mark is correct, and I have no doubt that any senior agent or representitive of the USJA would concur. In any case, bringing in outside experts is the right thing to do.

    June really is Hardin The FuckUp month.

    *popcorn*
    Matt,

    If you are going to tell them that then you REALLY should tell them how much I did NOT want to get involved and how hard I looked for ANY other possible answer, save the one I got....

    ...oh, if this keeps up I am sending Bullshido my Vodka bill....
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
      #30
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