Chuck Hardin's Judo claims...

**Mtripp** · Posted On: 6/22/2010 3:55pm

I have returned, BRIEFLY, as it has been told to me comments such as these need addressing. So, FOR A LIMITED TIME, address them I shall.

I have cut and pasted into word then put them back. I am sorry if that is confusing to anyone.

<<<Chuck said that his instructor’s system was initially some weird homebrew with red, white, and blue belts and all kinds of weirdness, which later morphed into a more conventional judo program. It’s unclear to me whether the normal senior/junior rules were necessarily followed in any detail. >>>

No sir. Chuck said the martial art system taught there used that system. The Judo was USJA and used the USJA materials and guidelines.

<<<Given the above, and given the fact that “kyu” is standard terminology for non-yudansha ranks in many JMAs, I don’t think that “sankyu” is a very confusing term no matter what the USJA may do for juniors. >>>

I am sorry, but this is simply not relevant. The ranks and memberships were claimed to be from USJA. As such they would follow the USJA system and policy. I have invited several high ranking people from USJA Ohio Judo to come here, review my work, and explain to you that what you are hearing is spot on.

<<<His profile, as cited, claimed that he attained “sankyu under an officially certified judo shodan” or something to this effect. The phrasing was interesting in that the assertion was explicit that his instructor held official rank, but was not explicit in asserting that Chunk’s own rank was registered.>>>

His Coaches “certified shodan” was from USJA. As such, how USJA does things is VERY relevant to this discussion.

<<<From what I read (in that long thread, I may well have missed some pertinent posts) it’s entirely possible that he only had a dojo rank of sankyu.>>>>

Possible but does noting to deal with the problem of how he got on a Shiai mat with NO membership in the USJA at all.

<<<If his instructor cannot be found in the records, then and only then was that account dishonest.>>>

I took Chuck at his word that the man was in their USJA database. I have not looked, but I guess I should. However, whatever the Coach was or was not, doesn’t explain the problem of fighting in Shiai’s with no membership card.

<<<As a 14-year-old kid you wear whatever belt your instructor tells you to wear and you're whatever rank your instructor tells you are. Maybe the instructor gets the organization paperwork done, maybe he doesn't. At such a low rank it barely matters.>>>

This is a projection and not on point. The only question is how USJA does things, and I can assure you they are VERY strict on following their ranking system.

<<<The USJA has very nice system for juniors -- in theory. But how many people actually follow it? Or, in the real world, distinguishes between the junior grades and the senior kyu grades? >>>

EVERYONE in USJA does, as you will hear from some VERY high-ranking members in a bit.

<<<Just as an example, I don't think my instructor even bothers with the paperwork below sankyu for seniors, and that's only so you qualify to get points at the USJF promotional Shiai. He certainly doesn't do formal tests for kyu ranks. You do your Kata in front of the board for Dan ranks once you have the points.>>>

But we are not speaking about USJF or USJI. I do not think either of them has the junior program in place that USJA does.

<<<I'm saying my instructor is a USJF/KDK rokudan with about 40 years of experience. He knows damn well what rank someone should be from observing Uchi komi, randori and other practice. At the kyu ranks, it's more about what division you should be fighting in than anything else.>>>

I agree with you. However I suspect that when its time to promote someone, they will need to be a member of USJF, and have earned points with USJF, BEFORE they get ANY promotion with USJF.

That is the point here…..

**Cuchulain** · Posted On: 6/22/2010 3:55pm

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

If I have to choose twenty good men against one possible liar, my choice is clear.

Which is presumably to remain impartial.

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 6/22/2010 3:59pm

Judo has some weird, complex politics. Although I cannot speak for Mr. Tripp, I'm pretty sure he has looked at this from all possible angles as to what possible scenarios could be in play. From my vantage point, I'd say that's essentially par for the course for anyone in his position. Although Mr. Tripp is a member of this site, when he writes anything whatsoever on the subject of Judo, he is speaking on behalf of the Judo powers that be. He is the authority on the subject.

I personally think that when a high level examiner for Judo weighs in on the subject of rank and who has a history of being nothing but helpful and known to bend over backward to show impartiality, it's pretty damn damning when the response is not vague pleasantries but definitive.

**Rock Ape** · Posted On: 6/22/2010 4:02pm

Mark..

In your post you say

"I have no other choice but to say that the story as related by Mr. Hardin is clearly false."

[my bold highlight]

Yet... You admit that you've not attempted to trace the instructor named by Chuck within the organisation's database thus presumably not made contact with said person in any attempt to verify what was presented to you - the memories of a person of some 25 years ago.

In the interests of thoroughness, might I suggest that gets done.

**Mtripp** · Posted On: 6/22/2010 4:10pm

Originally Posted by Hugo Stiglitz

Mark..

In your post you say [my bold highlight]

Yet... You admit that you've not attempted to trace the instructor named by Chuck within the organisation's database thus presumably not made contact with said person in any attempt to verify what was presented to you - the memories of a person of some 25 years ago.

In the interests of thoroughness, might I suggest that gets done.

To what end sir? Are we to investigate him next? Are we going to attempt to make him to blame?

Are those of you who support Chuck so obtuse that you can not see that it is the Shiai on which this story hinges, and as told can NOT be true? He was never a member of USJI, yet he claims to have fought in Junior USJA events.

That, could not have happened. Mark Hunter will be here soon. He has ran USJA Shiai's for over 30 years in Ohio. You do not have to take my word for it.

Oh, and we are still waiting for Chuck to tell us the actual name of his club so I can check to see if it was a USJA certified Judo club or not. Chuck HIMSELF said he checked out the teacher with USJA so when I began this I didn't think I had to, AS CHUCK HIMSELF VOUCHED FOR THE MAN BY HIS OWN INVESTIGATION.

Are you saying we can't take Chuck at his word?

**CoffeeFan** · Posted On: 6/22/2010 4:11pm

Originally Posted by Kintanon

I know I'm going to get **** for this, but I don't yet see this as "Chuck lied". Chuck was 14-17 years old. Certainly at the time he had no reason not to believe his coach. If, and this is only IF, just relax before you guys get all frothy in the chops on me, his coach told him he had a certain rank, gave him a belt and a piece of paper and sent him on his way then that's not the same as Chuck lying about his experience.
I imagine everyone will immediately start screaming about how I'm blind and refusing to see the light and all that, so just hold off on that for a minute. Has anyone attempted to verify any of the information about the club or the coach that Chuck listed or did it stop with just making sure Chuck was never listed with the USJA? Clearly Chuck does not have a legitimate USJA brown belt of any kind, that does not automatically make Chuck a liar. It just means he was wrong.
Would anyone like to look into his coach and the club? I will do so, but I'm also once again clearly advocating on Chucks side, so that's probably no the best idea.

Actually, it is quite possible that the instructor pocketed all the money and printed out his own certifications (thus negating any official rank) and Chuck simply didn't know. Especially considering he was only 15-16 at the time.

I am curious to hear more about these tournaments he participated in: were they simply in house judo tournaments and the parents paid the promoter? Were they larger unsanctioned tournaments? Either he has completely fabricated his entire judo history or he was taken in by an instructor who claimed he gave official rank when he did not.

Either way, the fiasco of the last few months has made me contemplate my involvement on this website.

**Mtripp** · Posted On: 6/22/2010 4:16pm

Originally Posted by CoffeeFan

Actually, it is quite possible that the instructor pocketed all the money and printed out his own certifications (thus negating any official rank) and Chuck simply didn't know. Especially considering he was only 15-16 at the time.

I am curious to hear more about these tournaments he participated in: were they simply in house judo tournaments and the parents paid the promoter? Were they larger unsanctioned tournaments? Either he has completely fabricated his entire judo history or he was taken in by an instructor who claimed he gave official rank when he did not.

Either way, the fiasco of the last few months has made me contemplate my involvement on this website.

Again, I have NO DOUBT the man was issuing dojo papers. However, most people who do that do NOT take their people to Shiai's. Because you have to have membership cards with your rank on them to enter. It would be odd, would it not, to be a "Sankyu" while your rank card said you were a white belt?

No, the problem is the claim of being a fighter in his youth. Even "in house" Judo Shiai require EVERYONE on the mat to have a membership card in one of the big three. IF JUST ONE PERSON ON THE MAT does not have that card then NO ONE is insured. Read the forms I linked to.

Finally, this fiasco should NOT in any way change your feelings about this site. HOW this fiasco is handled, THAT should.....

**Matt Phillips** · Posted On: 6/22/2010 4:21pm

Originally Posted by Cuchulain

Which is presumably to remain impartial.

When the dentist says your kid has a cavity, and your kid says "no i don't", how long should you remain "impartial", and how long until the dentist tells you to get out of his office and take your business elsewhere?

You just heard from certified examiner, referee and life member of the USJA and got a definitive professional opinion. What is there to be impartial about?

I sought Mark's professional opinion on Hardin's Judo claims before I ever posted on the subject. I have been over it with him at length, and I can tell you that Mark came to the conclusion that, if Chuck were to confirm what he had claimed privately (about his Judo) in public, that no scenario existed in which he was doing anything but straight up lying to our faces.

I would never have exposed Chuck to this if there were any such possibility of his innocence. Mark is correct, and I have no doubt that any senior agent or representitive of the USJA would concur. In any case, bringing in outside experts is the right thing to do.

June really is Hardin The FuckUp month.

*popcorn*

**battheo** · Posted On: 6/22/2010 4:24pm

In the YMAS thread, I think Chuck posted the place and dates of the tournaments he participated in. I'm afraid I can't recall them. Mark, are official records kept of these times and places? Would it be possible to check the records and see if Cy's tournaments even exist in offiial USJA history?

He may well be lying, but it's not impossible that his coach was posing as a USJA representative and organising these thigs off his own back. Is it?

I'm afraid I don't know enough about Judo to contribute anything more than questions. Sorry.

**Mtripp** · Posted On: 6/22/2010 4:28pm

Originally Posted by Matt Phillips

When the dentist says your kid has a cavity, and your kid says "no i don't", how long should you remain "impartial", and how long until the dentist tells you to get out of his office and take your business elsewhere?

You just heard from certified examiner, referee and life member of the USJA and got a definitive professional opinion. What is there to be impartial about?

I sought Mark's professional opinion on Hardin's Judo claims before I ever posted on the subject. I have been over it with him at length, and I can tell you that Mark came to the conclusion that, if Chuck were to confirm what he had claimed privately (about his Judo) in public, that no scenario existed in which he was doing anything but straight up lying to our faces.

I would never have exposed Chuck to this if there were any such possibility of his innocence. Mark is correct, and I have no doubt that any senior agent or representitive of the USJA would concur. In any case, bringing in outside experts is the right thing to do.

June really is Hardin The FuckUp month.

*popcorn*

Matt,

If you are going to tell them that then you REALLY should tell them how much I did NOT want to get involved and how hard I looked for ANY other possible answer, save the one I got....

...oh, if this keeps up I am sending Bullshido my Vodka bill....