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  1. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 5:28am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning View Post
    Actually Mark, the matter should be closed when we hear back about the interview with Cy's teacher, which I understand was to be attempted. If it cannot be carried out, then no further information would be available, but otherwise, that information should be placed in public.
    I was only repeating what I was told, by phone, by a staff member; to wit: I need not provide any more information on the subject. As such, I posted what I did.

    Obviously if Bullshido feels there is more to be learned or looked into, that is up to the powers that be. MY part in all of this however, is over.
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
      #111
  2. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 9:26am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If no one else thinks it matters, then would one of you folks that has the info send me the contact information for Mr. Kitz?

    I'll also be trying to contact the USJA regarding tournaments at Bergstrom AFB.
      #112
  3. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 9:40am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    If no one else thinks it matters, then would one of you folks that has the info send me the contact information for Mr. Kitz?

    I'll also be trying to contact the USJA regarding tournaments at Bergstrom AFB.
    You may recall that Mark Hunter is currently on that. Mr. Hunter is at one of the largest Judo Camp's in the Southeast as we speak, meeting with a great many people. But, of course, your call on what you'd like to do.

    If you INSIST I can contact USJA past president Jim Webb who did most of his Judo in Texas.

    Up to you guys....
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
      #113
  4. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 10:09am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If Mr. Hunter is planning on contacting Mr. Kitz then that is excellent and that's what I would prefer. I will only contact him if no one else plans to.
      #114
  5. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 10:12am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If Mr. Hunter is making contact and will report back, that would fulfill my request.
      #115
  6. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2010 9:54am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Of course it begs the question; what does it matter what the teacher says?

    I get that its a "lawyer" thing, and its why I think Shakespeare had a point. I am too "simple" a person to be able to argue for either side, depending on which I am paid to present. In as a curved pipe can not conceal a straight one, neither can any lie conceal the truth.

    First, do we have any evidence that Chuck trained with this man, at all? Photos, papers, any evidence? It seems to me questioning him, without establishing there was a connection, is assuming facts not in evidence?

    Second, I understand that the esteemed council is going to attempt to make this about the "fake" teacher, and how can we blame poor Chuck for what this mean bullshido artist did to him. The problem is there are two, and only two possibilities for this man. To wit, either he is the fake you claim, or he is not. We do not have to speak to him to know which is which.

    When we check his full USJA records, we will find out his entire history with USJA. If he is a legitimate Judoka, then we are going to find records of promotions both before and after the date of rank on his Shodan. We will see how active he has been, what his level of life membership is, the name of his certified and registered club is. BTW, you do notice Chuck can not tell us the name of this Club. At 14, mine was the Budokan Judo Club, before that it was the Detroit Judo club. I seem to have no problem recalling events from 40 years ago, 25 should be much easier.

    IF all of that is in place, then Chuck is doomed. Because such a man, who has walked the walk as USJA demands, would have registered his students, and Chuck would have been among them. All of Chucks promotions will be on record, except we know they are not. So, again, if this man is legit, then Chuck is doomed.

    As such, and the above is easy to follow, then it must stand to reason that if the teacher is a fake, then Chuck is saved? Nope, not even close.

    If, and I suspect this will be the case, we find that this man has a Shodan on the data base, and that is it. Nothing before and nothing after, then it is clear this is one of the "Porter Era" promotions. I have written at length of these on the thread about my own certification.

    We will find no registering of his club with USJA, no members, nothing to connect his program, dojo, and students to USJA. As such, there is NO WAY this man held, ran, or took ANY students to a Judo shiai. It simply could not be done. If he went to someone elses event, EVERYONE who fought would have to be registered. We know Chuck is not on ANY Judo data base in the US. To assert the man ran his own Judo shiai is flummery. We are to assume that one man, with a BS promotion, no skills and no knowledge, acted in the role of director and gathered people who knew what they were doing to be referees, coaches, timekeepers, score card operators (how many yuko's equal an ippon guys?) and the like. It simply could not be done. ANYONE who has actually been to a legitimate Judo shiai will know this is true. ANYONE who has actually ran and hosted a Judo shiai will tell you its damn tough even with all the right people supporting you.

    Finally, if defense council is going to tell us the instructor is a liar, then why would we want to hear the words of a man, who they say is a liar, a fake, and a bullshido artist?

    Sorry guys, but as I have said, Chuck is hooked. He can wiggle if he wishes, people can pull on the line and taunt the fisherman. His friends here, and he has many, can continue to try to diminish the importance or the facts; but we are here, and we are here ONLY because Chuck lied about his Judo experience. A lie that he himself, now, admits he suspected yet did nothing about.

    To continue to assert that a young man (14 is NOT a child) from 14 to 16 has no ability to remember these events is fatuous on its face.

    All of you may believe as you wish; just remember belief does not change the truth. The truth is here, I have stated it clearly and plainly.

    What is done with it is up to you.

    Mark Tripp
    Last edited by Mtripp; 6/25/2010 9:57am at .
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
      #116
  7. TheRuss is offline
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    is badder than you

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2010 11:00pm

    Join us... or die
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Basically, you need to contact USJA and seeif they can look up any records of sanctioned shiai inTexas in the years in question, at Bergrstrom. That would be the authoritative data to confirm or deny that Chuck COULD have attended a sanctioned shiai.
    A possible starting point:

    Veteran judo instructor stresses patience as key to learning craft
    Jim Hankins
    503 words
    26 January 1989
    Austin American-Statesman
    Patience is important when you're trying to teach judo to elementary schoolers.

    Some of them look like they are more interested in dancing, fidgeting, anything that burns off surplus energy. Getting them to pay attention can be a struggle.

    But struggle is what judo is all about, and 69-year-old John Wiercinski of Round Rock has been at it for nearly five decades. He's gone from teaching soldiers to "kill or be killed'' to teaching children to fight without hurting themselves or others. He recently received a promotion in belt rank that makes him one of the top 56 judo masters in the country, the fourth highest ranked in the state.

    Wiercinski has been teaching youth judo since 1963, when he retired from the Air Force, he said. He has coached the Bergstrom Air Force Base judo club and taught at the Austin YMCA for 13 years. Nowadays he has about a dozen students, all boys, at the Round Rock YMCA.

    Since last spring, he has been teaching a class at Pease Elementary School in Austin, also in conjunction with the YMCA. Wiercinski says the school is the only one he knows of that has judo classes for its own students. He said the school has paid for mats and students' uniforms. The classes are free for the students, and Wiercinski volunteers his time. Usually 16 to 20 students attend, about six girls among them, the coach said.

    Watching a class at the Round Rock YMCA shows how Wiercinski guides his young charges.

    The students are doing a training drill, practicing a throw Wiercinski taught them that afternoon. The drill involves a lot of running, throwing and falling, exertion that would have most adults huffing and puffing in a hurry, but the boys are all jumping up and down, laughing and waving their arms as they wait to be thrown.

    "Charlie, just be sure to tuck your chin in when you fall," the coach says. "Chris, that was fine. James, that was a good breakfall.''

    At the end of practice, Wiercinski has more words of encouragement.

    "What did you think of the practice?" he asks his pupils as they kneel on the mat, waiting to perform the ritual bow that ends every practice. "I'm very pleased about it.''

    After the praise comes a bit of criticism, more like grandfatherly advice.

    "We've got to practice on really being stronger holding them down,'' he says. One of the students confesses that he is having trouble with the pinning technique.

    ``I think you're fine,'' Wiercinski replies. "You're only 6 years old."

    After class, he explains his philosophy about teaching children.

    ``Kids are more difficult. You have to have patience... slow down to their level." It may require repeating instructions over and over.

    ``Most coaches don't want to teach kids, but I enjoy it because I don't have any kids at home,'' he said.
    (emphasis mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
      #117
  8. GirlJock is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2010 11:57pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mr. Tripp, I think it is important to hear from Chuck's teacher. I've read the thread and I will not profess to know anything about judo, but is seems all this hangs on the shai and the assumption that it was a legitimate sanctioned event. Is there no possibility whatsoever that there are illegitimate judo people who might do this? Maybe semantics are at work. If I have a bunch of people to my garage, I can call it a bjj tournament if I like. Is there no possible way a few teachers may have gotten together and called something a shai and not realized the grave mistake they made by calling it that? Everything you say assumes the shai was legit-it may not have been and I think the teacher might be able to clear that up.

    I've read your explanations so there is no need to go into what takes place again. I'll re-read it later. I just think a response from the teacher would be something that is afforded to others before making firm judgment and should be afforded here. It may or may not change my opinion, but I would still like to hear it.

    I also don't think its quite fair to say that just because he doesn't remember something means it didn't happen. I can not remember many things from when I was 14, whether or not there were important. I think it is public knowledge that chuck had an issue with some drugs and such-that itself can cause great degradation to the memory and ability to access. He just may not be able to recall so again I think it is unfair to suggest that as objective evidence against him. I also have nothing that says I made All State in softball...I never thought about saving the papers...why would I need them now? In fact, I have only three picture from my entire softball career that spanned decades. So again. I'm not convinced not having these items is objective evidence.

    I'm not trying to disagree, just trying to offer some other perspectives. Just because someone saves everything, pics, papers, doesn't mean everyone does.
      #118
  9. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2010 1:47am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
      #119
  10. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2010 1:55am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Rest assured, I am doing my utmost to contact Mr. Kitz as well as other judoka who were active in that area during that time period in an attempt to verify as much information as possible.
      #120
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