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  1. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2010 1:40am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by babo78 View Post
    Why do I picture you and a girl you had one night stand with that you cannot recall. Then she gets upset and throw cup of water in your face.

    She: hey der
    Der: Uh, hi have we met?
    She: u banged my brains out and u don't remember?
    *throw cup of water
    It wasn't water.
  2. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/23/2010 2:01am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by fights4peace View Post
    No I don't think so. Im an apprentice instructor under Hector Solis, I just recently got promoted and I am not on the instructors list.
    Hector's a good dude. I had a great time chatting with him at the Summit earlier this month. You've got a good teacher.

    Quote Originally Posted by fights4peace View Post
    Out of all the groundwork I learned except the BJJ "sumbrada" flow we never really bit much, during my instructor-ship course I was told that any soft part that juts from the body can be bit and that are 144 places etc. sames stuff I have heard for years...
    I would hope you're not biting while learning BJJ.

    First, get your purple in BJJ...or an equivalent. CSW. Sambo, etc.

    The modern kinamutai that Paul teaches requires a solid delivery system derived and developed through Brazilian jujutsu. It's not a substitute for BJJ, nor is it a panacea for grappling training.

    Quote Originally Posted by fights4peace View Post
    What I didnt properly ask, is when should I time the bite for example the video I posted earlier, what about his free hand?
    I would say his free hand is a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by fights4peace View Post
    I asked Burton Richarson whether he really emphasizes biting like we do in PFS. He said no, because if the opponent is in a dominant position it could back fire, though it does have uses in creating openings. Is that something we believe about it also?
    I would not say we "emphasize" biting in PFS. It's just something we develop.

    Paul emphasizes Muay Thai and Brazilian Jujutsu.

    Once you have a solid base in Muay Thai, you work with Panantukan for elbow destructions, gunting, and the like.

    Once you have a solid base in Muay Thai, you work with Wing Chun for trapping and developing forward pressure.

    Once you have a solid base in Brazilian Jujutsu, you work in Kinamutai to give you an edge in life or death situations.

    In discussions about dirty fighting techniques, we often run in to two extremes, both of which largely miss the point, neither of which Paul advocates.

    The first extreme is the stereotypical "too deadly to spar" LARPer, who says he doesn't need to learn grappling, because he can just eye gouge or bite his way out of that situation, since those sport grappling guys don't train to deal with bites.

    The other extreme correctly says that the LARPer does not have the ability to deliver those bites and eye gouges, because he doesn't have an understanding of what grappling actually entails, and doesn't have a delivery system, and that the grappler can bite just as well.

    They however ignore the fact that they still aren't training to deal with bites or how to apply them.

    That's where Kinamutai comes in. Through developing an understanding of grappling, we learn when and where we can bite that is advantageous to us. We learn when and where we are vulnerable to being bitten. We learn how we can apply those bites to achieve our ends.

    Can bites be used to create openings as Burton Richardson said?

    Certainly.

    Think about the bug-out drill. As soon as he starts pulling away, you open your guard, get your feet in his hips, and push him off.

    Kinamutai is not a substitute for Brazilian Jujutsu. Paul never states that, and the advertisement above strikes me as being more than a tad bit disingenuous. I don't know that instructor, I've never met him.

    Solid Brazilian Jujutsu skills are an absolute must for kinamutai, which brings us to the rest of your statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by fights4peace View Post
    I know this may seem like I am a newbie who did a two day program but I am not, and I have been doing this for a while now, but this was never properly explained to me beyond we need to get to purple belt skill at least and we need to bite to cheat.
    I won't put words in your instructor's mouth, but I would hazard a guess that it hasn't been properly explained because you're just not where you need to be yet. Keeping working on your BJJ game.

    I don't teach Kinamutai.

    Why?

    I'm not there yet. Do I have an understanding of it? Yes. But that's mostly an intellectual one. I don't have a physical ownership of kinamutai the same way I do my destructions or my kali.
  3. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/23/2010 9:01am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    [quote=DerAuslander108;2395772]




    the advertisement above strikes me as being more than a tad bit disingenuous.





    quote]

    That's all I was saying.
  4. fights4peace is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2010 3:34pm


     Style: BJJ, FMA

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    [quote=Vorpal;2395917]
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post




    the advertisement above strikes me as being more than a tad bit disingenuous.





    quote]

    That's all I was saying.
    Hadn't I already said that?

    Quote Originally Posted by fights4peace View Post
    hes right. this is just marketing Kino Mutai, but without purple belt lvl skill in bjj its like punching from the shoulder. there are no true short cuts. In order to have great stand up you need muay thai in order to have great ground you need bjj. then learn how to cheat other wise it is worthless.
  5. fights4peace is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2010 3:38pm


     Style: BJJ, FMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    Hector's a good dude. I had a great time chatting with him at the Summit earlier this month. You've got a good teacher.



    I would hope you're not biting while learning BJJ.

    First, get your purple in BJJ...or an equivalent. CSW. Sambo, etc.

    The modern kinamutai that Paul teaches requires a solid delivery system derived and developed through Brazilian jujutsu. It's not a substitute for BJJ, nor is it a panacea for grappling training.



    I would say his free hand is a problem.



    I would not say we "emphasize" biting in PFS. It's just something we develop.

    Paul emphasizes Muay Thai and Brazilian Jujutsu.

    Once you have a solid base in Muay Thai, you work with Panantukan for elbow destructions, gunting, and the like.

    Once you have a solid base in Muay Thai, you work with Wing Chun for trapping and developing forward pressure.

    Once you have a solid base in Brazilian Jujutsu, you work in Kinamutai to give you an edge in life or death situations.

    In discussions about dirty fighting techniques, we often run in to two extremes, both of which largely miss the point, neither of which Paul advocates.

    The first extreme is the stereotypical "too deadly to spar" LARPer, who says he doesn't need to learn grappling, because he can just eye gouge or bite his way out of that situation, since those sport grappling guys don't train to deal with bites.

    The other extreme correctly says that the LARPer does not have the ability to deliver those bites and eye gouges, because he doesn't have an understanding of what grappling actually entails, and doesn't have a delivery system, and that the grappler can bite just as well.

    They however ignore the fact that they still aren't training to deal with bites or how to apply them.

    That's where Kinamutai comes in. Through developing an understanding of grappling, we learn when and where we can bite that is advantageous to us. We learn when and where we are vulnerable to being bitten. We learn how we can apply those bites to achieve our ends.

    Can bites be used to create openings as Burton Richardson said?

    Certainly.

    Think about the bug-out drill. As soon as he starts pulling away, you open your guard, get your feet in his hips, and push him off.

    Kinamutai is not a substitute for Brazilian Jujutsu. Paul never states that, and the advertisement above strikes me as being more than a tad bit disingenuous. I don't know that instructor, I've never met him.

    Solid Brazilian Jujutsu skills are an absolute must for kinamutai, which brings us to the rest of your statement.



    I won't put words in your instructor's mouth, but I would hazard a guess that it hasn't been properly explained because you're just not where you need to be yet. Keeping working on your BJJ game.

    I don't teach Kinamutai.

    Why?

    I'm not there yet. Do I have an understanding of it? Yes. But that's mostly an intellectual one. I don't have a physical ownership of kinamutai the same way I do my destructions or my kali.
    Thanks, this helped me out. The only reason i so adamantly defend kino mutai is because most people rather rag on something than understand its application and purpose. I just never put it as straight forward as you said it, and I never understood it fully myself *goes back to the apprentice sandbox*
  6. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2010 5:50pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

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    Quote Originally Posted by fights4peace View Post
    no its for real. Its a called kino mutai. ask der auslander for more info, he has higher rank than me I believe, and i dont want to misrepresent anything. As a side note, my experience with Pauls guys is that they are very big into grappling. Paul of course is a purple belt from Rickson and has been rolling for 24 years

    What I don't understand is why biting can defeat a BJJ black belt in seconds. Just like many other techniques, it can create space and be surprising, but won't finish a fight on its own. Now, biting (kino mutai is a biting sub-art), alongside good grappling, can beat great grappling.

    As to the original post, Vunak is pretty legit, although IMHO his marketing is over the top. I know several people who have trained with Vunak (and one who has studied Kino mutai).
  7. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2010 5:56pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just finished reading the rest of the thread. DerAuslander makes the exact point I was trying to, but better.
  8. CarlosJesena is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 5:13am


     Style: BJJ, TKD, Lifting+Cardio

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
    I'm thinking that the Japanese,Spanish and USMC were not using BJJ when they were overunning the Phillipines.
    Lol, we used something back then called Diplomacy-do. D34dly.
  9. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 6:34am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most people who bite during fights do so out of desperation because they are losing the fight. They are usually losing the fight because the attacker is bigger, stronger, more skilled or more aggressive. In the few instances where I've seen people resort to biting it has resulted in pissing off the aggressor who was already beating their ass and causing the biter to receive an even worse thrashing. I'm not sure that "nibbling" on a BJJ BB would be a really great strategy. I did see some biting techniques in Korea that were in Tae Kyon. These techniques were performed as aggressive attacks (pulling someone towards you and taking a large bite out of their neck). I have no idea how effective that would be but the possibility of being attacked in that manner is disturbing.
  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 7:05am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
    Most people who bite during fights do so out of desperation because they are losing the fight.
    Kinamutai for 99.9999999999999999% of the population is taught as an absolute, you are completely fucked, this may give you just enough of an opening to slip out and pull something else. Alternately, because again, we are dealing with worst case scenarios, take a chuck out of his carotid.

    The other 00.0000000000000001% is Jack Bauer.

    Let's face it. If you're a purple in BJJ, you're up on the overwhelming majority of humanity when it comes to rolling around on the ground, so the situations you may actually need to bite are going to be beyond infintesmially few and far between.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
    I'm not sure that "nibbling" on a BJJ BB would be a really great strategy.
    Kinamutai is definitely not nibbling. It's biting with an aim toward maiming. Tearing. The strategy of kinamutai is to get to a position where you can bite "uninterrupted", meaning that your opponent cannot bite you back, and that you can continue your bite until the opponent either completely disengages from you, or you are able to achieve a superior position and can thus either disengage or return to more conventional tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
    I did see some biting techniques in Korea that were in Tae Kyon. These techniques were performed as aggressive attacks (pulling someone towards you and taking a large bite out of their neck). I have no idea how effective that would be but the possibility of being attacked in that manner is disturbing.
    Pretty much right on point.

    Yeah, if I ever chose to advertise kinamutai on my website (first clue, I wouldn't), I definitely would not make any of the statements that this gentleman did.
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