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  1. Raging Monkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 11:58am


     Style: BJJ, JJJ and JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    Any video of this pass? I know this is the "Half Guard Bottom" thread, but avoiding passes is also part of the game. Can't have Half Guard Bottom without looking at Half Guard Top as well.
    No, it is one I have come up with on my own...

    I am a skinny guy (5'10" 160lbs) and all the smash passes I keep getting taught never seemed to work right for me (admittedly I know this is because my top pressure sucks). So I took the 'collapse the top leg' pass that you mentioned and got it to work for me by imbedding my obsessive love for the brabo grip on the gi into it.

    Following your layout of right leg in, left on top.

    Using my left hand I feed the left lapel through the thighs to my right hand. I use my right shoulder and chest to collapse the left leg down some. This is usually where this goes bad for me without the gi... I then take my left hand and slide it under their right thigh and hand off the lapel. I find that this not only is a solid grip, but also really limits the mobility of the hips. Then I crush down on the legs squeezing them together with the lapel and my right arm. Then I belly down and slide back (think like how you finish a Monson choke) until my legs clear, then walk back in with my knees to the left side of both their legs. I keep the lapel grip until I have side control secured.
  2. Raging Monkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 12:01pm


     Style: BJJ, JJJ and JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One other thing is I find that grip with lacing the lapel through the legs like that is great for is preventing guys from inverting their guard or shooting triangles if I decide to bail on the smash pass.
  3. Kintanon is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 12:03pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouchboy View Post
    [/indent]I have problems with this, more often than not ,they start going for choke, I have to bail out of grabbing and straigthen out.

    Any Ideas on how to clearly avoid that part?

    I got into Deep HG and variants because I noticed that it keeps me safe from most of the guys (and girls).

    Anyway, since I'm a n00b white belt a good old STFU might be deserved to be thrown my way.

    Thanks for the post :toothy6:
    In addition to the stuff Skippy already said, are you panicking early before the choke is actually on and bailing on your sweep attempt? When I'm going for something the old school sweep from deep halfguard and someone starts trying to work the choke I've found that the best defense is to finish your sweep. There are only a couple of chokes that really work from the bottom of side control and I can't think of any that are easy to setup when someone is in deep half guard.
  4. Uncle Skippy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 2:48pm

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      Style: BJJ, MT, TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Raging Monkey View Post
    Using my left hand I feed the left lapel through the thighs to my right hand. I use my right shoulder and chest to collapse the left leg down some. This is usually where this goes bad for me without the gi... I then take my left hand and slide it under their right thigh and hand off the lapel. I find that this not only is a solid grip, but also really limits the mobility of the hips. Then I crush down on the legs squeezing them together with the lapel and my right arm. Then I belly down and slide back (think like how you finish a Monson choke) until my legs clear, then walk back in with my knees to the left side of both their legs. I keep the lapel grip until I have side control secured.
    So you effectively have the bottom person's 'bottom' leg (right in this instance) wrapped with your own lapel and secured with your left hand. Is that a good summary?

    I'll give that a shot tonight.

    My go-to passes from HG top all tend to isolate and contain the bottom leg because that is the one that will get me in trouble during the pass. Controlling the bottom leg makes it easier to post/block the hip on that side during the pass. That is why, when on bottom, if somebody is controlling/pinning your bottom leg, it can lead to very bad things.
  5. Uncle Skippy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 3:15pm

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      Style: BJJ, MT, TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Far HG or 'Z' guard (continued)

    Frames and Pressure

    I glanced over frames and pressure above at the expense of providing a 'big picture'. Here are some details that work for me.

    In Far HG/Z-guard (as described above), every limb should be doing something.

    The right leg (bottom) should not just be sitting between the top person's leg. The knee should be pressuring against the top person's left thigh to help disrupt their base and keep any space you make. You are not trying to actively move their leg. 'Pressure' means that you are keeping the limb 'loaded'; if their leg moves, your leg follows because it is pushing **slightly** into their leg.

    The left leg (top) should be pressuring into their right chest/shoulder. This pressure should keep them upright and prevent them from collapsing your top leg. Again, you are not trying to push them backwards with it; just provide a little pressure to keep them upright. Also, your knee should stay on the right side of their body. If your knee crosses their center line, your leg will be easy to collapse.

    The left arm (top) has an underhook through their right armpit OR is straight-arming (NOT bent) with a lapel grip. The underhook is used to open up their back and to counter their pass attempts. Again, there should be pressure with your underhook. You are not trying to push them over or throw them around with it. You are using it maintain any space you create; it is a frame that you move YOURSELF behind it. The other position, a straight-arm to the lapel, is a strong structural frame. If there is a wrestling match that pits your arm strength against the top person's core strength and gravity, who will win? Top person. When you bend your arm, you are engaging in that type of wrestling match because you are using your arm muscles to maintain the shape of your arm. Keep your arm straight and all of the sudden you can support and move a LOT more weight and force.

    The right arm (bottom) is your 'handyman' arm. It does several things: it gives you a 3rd point on your base if you need it (elbow or hand posted behind you); it is what you use to address grips as then come in; it is used to protect your head; and it is used for mobility (post and help move yourself around them).

    Your head is waiting for the opportunity to provide pressure either against their ribs (if you move to take the back), against their hip (if you move to deep HG), or against their head/shoulders (turn to knees). Because you are guarding it at all times in HG, it is lying in wait until it gets close enough to their body and then it goes to work quickly and actively.

    Here is the bottom line: if you are not using all of your limbs to provide pressure to the top person, you are playing a dead HG bottom game. You are biding your time and just waiting to be passed. All limbs provide pressure at all times unless they need to be hidden for protection.
    Last edited by Uncle Skippy; 6/22/2010 3:19pm at .
  6. ouchboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 3:34pm


     Style: Bjj / Mexican Judo.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    You should be using your right (bottom) arm to guard your neck/head. That arm's job is to protect your head and, in the process, control the top person's left arm when you dive into deep HG. Once you are in deep HG, think about gluing yourself to the other person. Any space will open you to an underhook which will create space which will create an opportunity for the top person to flatten you or work on your legs. If they get that space and work, deal with it or bail to Far HG/Z-guard.

    The angle should be wrong for the choke though. Do you know what choke they are using?
    Thanks for the tips, I will try to explain to the best of my abilities. Please bear with me.

    I lock legs, left hand cross lapel to avoid the guy coming down, right hand (bottom) avoiding crossface. i Can keep this up no prob.

    Diving in seems to be the tissue. Please correct me when (and most probably am) fucking up the sequence.

    -Left hands goes to underhook his right arm.

    -I commit to going with my right hand under to grab the leg( that would be left leg).
    -Guy goes with right hand (the one being underhooked) tries to cross from my armpit under my neck and grab bicep.

    As I say it looks like a choke attempt, they don't get it but Since im wtfbbq, I reset to going back. Noob mistake perhaps.


    I will go training again on thursday and try to get this going to see.
    faceslap myself in the face 20 times before saying "no space, no space"


    alternatively I can google for something similar, but Im pretty sure im fucking it up when I let go with my bottom arm.

    Thanks for the help :-)
    Last edited by ouchboy; 6/22/2010 3:37pm at .
  7. Uncle Skippy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 3:51pm

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      Style: BJJ, MT, TKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouchboy View Post
    -Left hands goes to underhook his right arm.
    -I commit to going with my right hand under to grab the leg( that would be left leg).
    -Guy goes with right hand (the one being underhooked) tries to cross from my armpit under my neck and grab bicep.

    As I say it looks like a choke attempt, they don't get it but Since im wtfbbq, I reset to going back. Noob mistake perhaps.
    When the top person puts his right arm across your neck, is he going through your armpit (around your arm) or is he unwrapping your arm and shooting straight down for your neck?

    If he is going through your armpit, he may be setting up a D'Arce choke or a variation thereof. Here is the big key though: remember that your left shoulder needs to be tucked up tight against his right hip or thigh. If there is space, he can feed his arm through. Use your left arm to wrap his right hip and glue yourself to him. If he gets his arm in there, you can either bail to Far HG/Z-guard or squirm yourself under him (become his base) and he'll have other things to worry about.

    If he is unwrapping your left arm underhook, take his back. Without his arm there, you are free to circle around him.

    Either way, remember that the transition from Far HG/Z-guard to Deep HG relies on your being able to protect your head with your right arm and removing all space.

    You should also not transition to Deep HG until the top person commits an arm to something. If they have both arms readily available, they can catch something pretty easily in the transition (their arms are faster than you shifting your entire body closer). As a setup, I REALLY like to get them to post their left hand (the one not being underhooked) on the ground by shifting their base off to their left. With that hand posted, you can slide right into Deep HG. I'll go over the transitions in a later post unless somebody else chimes in.
  8. ouchboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 4:02pm


     Style: Bjj / Mexican Judo.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    When the top person puts his right arm across your neck, is he going through your armpit (around your arm) or is he unwrapping your arm and shooting straight down for your neck?

    If he is going through your armpit, he may be setting up a D'Arce choke or a variation thereof. Here is the big key though: remember that your left shoulder needs to be tucked up tight against his right hip or thigh. If there is space, he can feed his arm through. Use your left arm to wrap his right hip and glue yourself to him. If he gets his arm in there, you can either bail to Far HG/Z-guard or squirm yourself under him (become his base) and he'll have other things to worry about.

    If he is unwrapping your left arm underhook, take his back. Without his arm there, you are free to circle around him.

    Either way, remember that the transition from Far HG/Z-guard to Deep HG relies on your being able to protect your head with your right arm and removing all space.

    You should also not transition to Deep HG until the top person commits an arm to something. If they have both arms readily available, they can catch something pretty easily in the transition (their arms are faster than you shifting your entire body closer). As a setup, I REALLY like to get them to post their left hand (the one not being underhooked) on the ground by shifting their base off to their left. With that hand posted, you can slide right into Deep HG. I'll go over the transitions in a later post unless somebody else chimes in.

    Just youtubed darce from half guard, yep that is it. they go around my arm.
    It seems that it is there go to move when they have somebody in half guard.

    I will keep your pointers in mind.. as I said this thing keeps me alive most of the time.

    I haven't searched the forum, but I guess a good thing to put for noobs is the attack mentality. I rely on this guard because I Tend to be too defensive.


    Anyways, much appreciated.

    thanks :icon_thum
  9. Raging Monkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 4:43pm


     Style: BJJ, JJJ and JKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    So you effectively have the bottom person's 'bottom' leg (right in this instance) wrapped with your own lapel and secured with your left hand. Is that a good summary?

    I'll give that a shot tonight.
    Almost. I use *his* lapel, not mine (specifically his left lapel). Hence why it locks his hips down and prevents him turning to his left hip or even flattening out and following me with his legs once I start to pass.
  10. Uncle Skippy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 4:57pm

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      Style: BJJ, MT, TKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouchboy View Post
    Just youtubed darce from half guard, yep that is it. they go around my arm.
    It seems that it is there go to move when they have somebody in half guard.
    Quick pointer though I plan to touch on submission defense in a later post: never allow the person on top to collapse your frames.

    This means your legs and your arms. Your underhook is a frame; if they collapse it (bring your elbow down to the same level as your shoulder), the D'Arce choke will be right there (along with a few others). Keep your frame up until you are 'safely' tucked in, then bring it down to wrap the leg/hip.

    Let us know how it goes.
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