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  1. #171

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    lol, so essentially you are saying that no matter how many groups surveyed by myself, and others, there is no way of denying your example, which you have still yet to name. If you name your frame of reference, perhaps we can extrapolate the context in which this supposition of yours comes from. Otherwise, I can keep naming groups, and sources and you can keep saying they are not enough.

  2. #172
    Permalost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1evilgenius View Post
    I don't see any good reason to hit a stick when you can hit the body other then being nice to your partner.
    -to get a superior position, by passing or entering after stick contact. Can you do this to the arm instead? Yes, but its not as safe and you may not want to be that close.

    -because attacking the arm is often past the articulation of the wrist, so you may still get hit with kurbata as you hit their arm, and sacrificing a hit for a better hit isn't a good tactic with weapons.

    -along with the point above, a flowing block that goes from the stick and slides down the shaft to the hand manages to hit the hand and eliminate the kurbata.

    -sometimes from a long range I like to give their stick a hard rap with mine just to see what they do. So, its an information probe, and it can rattle them a bit, and it can be at a distance where they can't reach you so its fairly safe. If I were to do this to the hand I feel that I'm more likely to be countered on my own hand.

  3. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuya View Post
    lol, so essentially you are saying that no matter how many groups surveyed by myself, and others, there is no way of denying your example, which you have still yet to name. If you name your frame of reference, perhaps we can extrapolate the context in which this supposition of yours comes from. Otherwise, I can keep naming groups, and sources and you can keep saying they are not enough.
    i'm starting to think your claim that you'd love to learn the error of your ways was disingenuous. in the event that it's not - i don't have specific names or locations of groups. gat puno baet (http://www.garimot.com/) might be able to give you specifics. or if one example is enough (as it should be), ask him about his father's training. does your list of gms include anyone from luzon? or for that matter, anyone outside of cebu, negros, and panay?

    i've stayed civil and reasonable in this conversation, trying to understand your point of view. i'd appreciate it if you returned the favor, rather than misrepresenting and deriding my statements.

  4. #174
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now I'm kinda curious about this stick-on-stick stuff. My teacher learned Batangas baston from his dad, but later learned Doce Pares and KAA kali, and we certainly do stick on stick drills. I should ask if his Batangas baston training had stick on stick drills. He's mentioned that it was less structured martial art and more free play hit-and-don't-be-hit.

  5. #175

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    lol yes my list does include Luzon guys, from Batangeuno stylists, my own uncle who did a pampangan style, GM Rodel Dagooc beyond doing modern arnis also does his own Luzon based family style. One thing about modern arnis, being a big org, it did suck in alot of Luzon stylists, again because of the backing of Naraphil and a dictator. I cant speak for whom the Prof has surveyed in Luzon, though he has traveled the country quite a bit, and being a professor of anthropology at the premier university in PI does give more access to people than private martial artists.

    Anyways I asked what groups you were referring to, because you are so adamant that pattern drilling is traditional, I thought perhaps you did a bigger survey than me, so was curious. Yet, while you say doing a personal survey of close to dozen different masters/GMs of differing systems, from Luzon, Visaya, and Moroland as well as comparing notes with others who have done similar surveys, is too small a sampling, and yet according to you I am supposed to accept just one from you as being enough, really? And speaking of Modern Arnis sucking people in, Remy and Gat Puno Abon Baet did have a long relationship as well, as he has he has mentioned so on the old Eskrima Digest many a time.

    Again, to clarify what Im arguing, because it seems there is confusion over whether or not I am calling any stick contact non-traditional. I am stating Pensa pensiba, question answer, versus rote memorization was traditional. If one hears stories of fractured teaching from guys like Manong Lacosta, Tatang, Anciong Bacon, etc..., it is because they taught pensa pensiba or the old way of situational training versus pattern drilling, since everything is situational. Its hard to teach that way, as the teacher needs to be very good, and requires alot of time with the student. Again, in keeping with all the stories I have heard to switching to pattern drilling, easier to teach large groups of unskilled folks, especially in seminar (thats what the guys who developed alot of the drills used by Stockton groups and Dan Inosanto told me was their reasoning, as well as the gym class argument from PI as Marcos was pushing for nationalization). You also have to keep the context of Philippine history in mind. Large Western style standing armies were by definition a foreign introduction. If you read enough Philippine history/anthropology books, you hit a pattern of tribal existence, loose affiliations, where every hing was person to person versus large broadcast. Still today lots of things in PI are person to person vs cookie cutter, even when modernity should dictate the opposite (nothing like having to have a personal relationship with the local DHL clerk to have basic stuff shipped). Its easy to teach random/pensa pensiba vs set patterns, when you are one on one, extremely difficult in large groups.

    Also again, its not a question of does your stick every contact the other guys stick (hey alot of styles block or use the stick to parry or use the stick to do stuff asides from just hit), but an issue of pattern drilling, and false targetting (e.g. I hit this to represent this).

    Oh well, fun times on bullshido.

  6. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuya View Post
    Anyways I asked what groups you were referring to, because you are so adamant that pattern drilling is traditional, I thought perhaps you did a bigger survey than me, so was curious.
    i haven't done a survey because the question hasn't occurred to me. and, i've never said that pattern drilling was traditional - i said it's not modern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuya View Post
    Yet, while you say doing a personal survey of close to dozen different masters/GMs of differing systems, from Luzon, Visaya, and Moroland as well as comparing notes with others who have done similar surveys, is too small a sampling
    no, i never said that. i said that the list you gave previously was too narrow, and asked what the others were. you have a perfectly valid point without creating all these strawmen to knock down, and in the future i think your point would be better received if you didn't do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuya View Post
    and yet according to you I am supposed to accept just one from you as being enough, really?
    well, yes. a single counterexample is enough to disprove the statement that it's modern and non-traditional in fma. at the very least, it should amend your belief to it being a older practice in at least one place, while being a modern adaptation in most others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuya View Post
    And speaking of Modern Arnis sucking people in, Remy and Gat Puno Abon Baet did have a long relationship as well, as he has he has mentioned so on the old Eskrima Digest many a time.
    i'm fully aware. i don't understand your implication, though.

  7. #177

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Has anyone read this article before?http://mumbakki.wordpress.com/2012/0...mon-questions/

    I can't be sure but I have only heard of 1 kali group that ia 100 yrs old, and honestly, I love the system.

  8. #178
    Chili Pepper's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ipponde View Post
    I can't be sure but I have only heard of 1 kali group that ia 100 yrs old, and honestly, I love the system.
    As soon as I hear the term "kali", a red flag goes up. The group might be 100 years old, but the name certainly isn't.

  9. #179

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Weapon to weapon drills i.e. stick to stick, and pattern drills were all traditional practices. You can find these in almost all styles all over the Philippines. The masters who didn't do these are exceptions and not the rule.

  10. #180

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ipponde View Post
    Has anyone read this article before?http://mumbakki.wordpress.com/2012/0...mon-questions/

    I can't be sure but I have only heard of 1 kali group that ia 100 yrs old, and honestly, I love the system.
    The guy together with his crew seemed more interested to debunk his former master and group, and to promote himself and their new FMA vision than to show any alternative FMA truth.

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