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  1. 1evilgenius is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2012 11:44am


     Style: Bahad Zubu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tapping of the sticks/weapons is a modern thing, Prof Remy Presas introduced that to the US market so we could all go back to work the next day without bumps and bruises and it was adopted by almost all the FMA teachers following his arrival. It is well known that clacking sticks together is a safe way of training strikes to the arms, hands ect. Also, there isn't a good archive of knowledge regarding two sword fighting, there is known duals using stick and daga and sword and daga (less common) but using two swords is rare, and most siniwalli are excercise only, no good combative form. There are good two stick movements, like the kind Kuya was mentioning and other styles, players that have combative elements. Good topic, always fun to debate siniwalli. :TrollDad:
  2. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2012 2:19pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1evilgenius View Post
    Tapping of the sticks/weapons is a modern thing, Prof Remy Presas introduced that to the US market so we could all go back to work the next day without bumps and bruises and it was adopted by almost all the FMA teachers following his arrival.
    If only we never had to work, like the Filipinos of yesteryear!

    there isn't a good archive of knowledge regarding two sword fighting, there is known duals using stick and daga and sword and daga (less common) but using two swords is rare, and most siniwalli are excercise only, no good combative form.
    I thought espada y daga was at least as common as baston y daga.
  3. Kuya is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2012 9:52pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tim_Stl I thought I was fairly clear as to why I think tapi-tapi style non-contact drills, that emphasize contact with weaponry versus real attacks to the opponent are not traditional.

    1. Conversations with various GM's/Masters from quite a few influential groups in the Philippines as well as the US, as to why these drills/training methods were invented. I suppose there is a chance they are all lying to me, and somehow are trying to make their own training seem more hardcore by lying about the level of contact of their previous training and their motivations of inventing drills. Though, it is interesting to see as time moves forward, more and more dead drills are invented that simply did not exist for many groups 30 years ago.

    2. Conversations with an actual professor of anthropology from UP and his own research/experience meeting GMs/Masters around PI. Again, I suppose there is the chance that just like me, these GM's and Masters would lie to him as well.

    3. Video of one of the most famous GM's Tatang, still emphasizing contact and not simply tapping sticks. Again I suppose you can argue this was a one time vid, and that despite his student's assertions (e.g. GM Yuli Romo and GM Tony Diego) that this was traditional style training, they could all simply be lying.

    So I guess Im stumped as to what more you want from me as far as this topic is concerned. There is a chance I am wrong, and I would be happy to learn the error of my ways, and what groups emphasized non-contact training and why. Yet, asides from asserting that I am wrong, you have still to come back with how you are basing your assertion, that emphasis on these drills are traditional training. And I can only assume that is your assertion, as despite my numerous repetitions of how I came to my conclusions (I think this is the third post where I am stating how I've come to my opinion), you keep coming back and asking the same question.

    So please, what specifically are you looking for from me? And what evidence do you have for your assertions?
  4. Kuya is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2012 9:53pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As for two sword fighting, American soldiers during the Phil-Am war, when encountering the Pulajans, particularly in Samar reported the usage of two swords during combat. You can read accounts of this in Russel Roth's book Muddy Glory.
  5. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/22/2012 12:36pm


     Style: fma

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuya View Post
    So please, what specifically are you looking for from me?
    what i'm specifically looking for is whether or not you think sinawali is a modern, non-traditional practice. the only reply in that regard that i got from you was that you saw a video of tatang ilustrisimo with two sticks not hitting the sticks. that's not what i consider an answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuya View Post
    And what evidence do you have for your assertions?
    first, i'm not calling anyone a liar, so relax. if any gm, master, or professor tells you that hitting the sticks instead of the body is new to their style, or they got the idea from remy presas, i have no problem with it. when someone (gm, professor, or not) generalizes that to say that it's new to fma, or that remy presas introduced it, they're wrong, and i'll speak up. cinco teros and sinawali styles from pangasinan and pampanga have been using that method of training for a long time.
  6. Kuya is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/22/2012 2:32pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As far as sinawali in the sense of overly scripted/choreographed pattern drill, that emphasizes not hitting your partner, yes I do consider it modern, and I would have thought that was fairly obvious with my previous posts.

    Though that is different than saying labeling all two weapons styles as non-traditional. Sure there is historical accounts of two weapons styles. Though, as far as overly complicated scripted two person tapping stick drills, again from what I've been told, those are for gym class and not for fighting.
  7. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/22/2012 2:53pm


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuya View Post
    As far as sinawali in the sense of overly scripted/choreographed pattern drill, that emphasizes not hitting your partner, yes I do consider it modern, and I would have thought that was fairly obvious with my previous posts.
    i don't like to make assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuya View Post
    Though, as far as overly complicated scripted two person tapping stick drills, again from what I've been told, those are for gym class and not for fighting.
    you asked, i delivered, but you haven't changed your mind. i have to ask, then, what 'evidence' would you require to change your mind?
  8. Kuya is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/22/2012 3:57pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Which groups in Pangasinan and Pampanga?

    Again, I am not basing my opinion on one GM, and one passing conversation. But rather multiple different styles, with different GM's many who did not like each other.

    So if you're gonna say that their claims are erroneous (and again in our conversations they were talking about their own training and how things were in their areas), then please I would like to know who/what group, rather some miscellaneous Pampangan group, differed. I do travel not just the US, and would love to do a trip to Pampanga and meet these GM's and hear their take on non-contact drilling.
  9. 1evilgenius is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/22/2012 4:09pm


     Style: Bahad Zubu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Regardless of whether GM's hit sticks or not, I would say the real argument in the utility of doing it. I don't see any good reason to hit a stick when you can hit the body other then being nice to your partner.
  10. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/22/2012 5:20pm


     Style: fma

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuya View Post
    So if you're gonna say that their claims are erroneous (and again in our conversations they were talking about their own training and how things were in their areas)
    if you reread what i wrote, i didn't call their claims erroneous. they were talking about their own training and areas. what i'm calling erroneous is your generalization that their claims apply to the whole of fma. generalizations require a representative sample, and are error-prone even then. you mentioned "KI, Modern Arnis, Kombatan, Dekiti/Pekiti Tirsia, LSAI, and Balintawak" - on its own, that doesn't seem representative of fma. who are the lesser-known ones you've talked to that make you feel that this sample set is representative of the whole of fma?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1evilgenius View Post
    Regardless of whether GM's hit sticks or not, I would say the real argument in the utility of doing it. I don't see any good reason to hit a stick when you can hit the body other then being nice to your partner.
    is that not enough? even if you're the kind of person who doesn't like to take it easy, what if your partner is your instructor? what if you're the instructor, and you're training someone 1-on-1; do you let them hit you over and over?

    there are a myriad of other reasons - it allows you to work on your control of distance and rhythm, timing, accuracy, and body mechanics at the same time at any pace or intensity you like, all while your partner does the same. it allows an instructor or senior practitioner to non-verbally shape the movement of the partner to conform to the desired attributes previously mentioned. it helps you get in tons of repetitions (with the previously-mentioned benefits) in a short time period. when showing subtle differences in one of the previously-mentioned aspects of a technique or movement, the small delay between repetitions and participation of the student in the same movement and ability to cycle back and forth between slight variations helps to cut down on change blindness. performing the same motion as your partner (in drills that mirror like sinawali) also aid learning through automatic imitation. all that's just off the top of my head.

    don't get me wrong - i hate bad repetitive stick-on-stick drills as much as the next guy (maybe moreso), and i have a personal dislike of sinawali. however, i recognize that it has a lot of benefits.

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