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  1. Nicko1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 7:08pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    I doubt that either Jj or Der would say that bad martial arts are a solution to not training properly (hence the red herring nature of any assertion of this nature).
    Sadly, JJ is saying that. At least, that is the implication of his attack on Der. He is equating "aliveness" with "full-contact MMA cagefighting to the death", hence the strawman rejoinder from Der. By saying that aliveness is not for everyone, JJ is effectively saying that not everyone should train effectively. If he meant that full-contact cage fighting is not everyone's cup of tea, then he should have said that.

    Ultimately I look at it like this: develop the skill sets and senior citizens, women and even children can learn to use weapons as a way to level the playing field if need be.
    And the most effective method of developing these skills is training as alive as you are able to. This will teach the skills in the shortest possible time while providing constant feedback for the student as to his or her actual progress. Anything else is substandard training.
  2. vaquero de las nalgas is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 7:12pm


     Style: Hsing I, Bagua, Chi kung

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    Quote Originally Posted by sidandphil View Post
    Good argument! Realistic self defense isn't about training to fight other fighters but preventing and dealing with assault. You're going to be gouging some stupid thug's eyes out, not having some cagefight.
    Is that why there are so many Krav Maga practioners winning UFC matches?
  3. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 8:37pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Sadly, JJ is saying that. At least, that is the implication of his attack on Der. He is equating "aliveness" with "full-contact MMA cagefighting to the death", hence the strawman rejoinder from Der. By saying that aliveness is not for everyone, JJ is effectively saying that not everyone should train effectively. If he meant that full-contact cage fighting is not everyone's cup of tea, then he should have said that.



    And the most effective method of developing these skills is training as alive as you are able to. This will teach the skills in the shortest possible time while providing constant feedback for the student as to his or her actual progress. Anything else is substandard training.
    Im not going to touch this. I am waiting patiently to see in this debate where anyone is advocating bad martial arts training. Yes we all have ideas about what, or, how much and what type of training is appropriate, thats all I see. Now, that is what I see... my eyes are not perfect!
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  4. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 9:24pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    This is the most retarded post I've ever seen you post, & there's been some pretty stiff competition. I don't even have time to discuss how impractical it is to expect senior citizens to practice "a progressive, alive training program that addresses all modes of combat, armed, grappling, striking, the clinch, & everything in between."
    Half of teaching seniors self defense (usually "tricks" and using force multipliers and tools such as canes, umbrellas and pepper spray) is to cause enough inconvenience or discomfort that the attacker/mugger will look for easier prey, and half TO MAKE THEM FEEL BETTER.
    NOT to make them "a contender".
    Pull your head out, man, & quit trying to be such a e-hard ass.

    Ok I stand corrected:

    This post from JJ indicates a legitimate difference of opinion. So be it,

    but can we not mention aliveness and and red herring in the next 5 posts?
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  5. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 10:12pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    Ok I stand corrected:

    This post from JJ indicates a legitimate difference of opinion. So be it,

    but can we not mention aliveness and and red herring in the next 5 posts?
    Considering that Aliveness is the only thing I'm talking about...

    No.
  6. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 10:47pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    Considering that Aliveness is the only thing I'm talking about...

    No.
    yeah but the word becomes a sort of..... well it becomes what people want it to be more than something that is something to be attained and venerated based on an idea. Now you can certainly blame people for that I do.

    Before this term became a fixation some people understood that the way you train is the way you will do. Has this understanding become better? more understood? more clear with this term? Perhaps....
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  7. gregaquaman is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 10:53pm

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     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    Ok I stand corrected:

    This post from JJ indicates a legitimate difference of opinion. So be it,

    but can we not mention aliveness and and red herring in the next 5 posts?

    but remember that Bruce lee said absorb what is useful and reject what is usless.

    Sorry had to do it it was like Satan had taken control of my fingers.
  8. Nicko1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 11:20pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    yeah but the word becomes a sort of..... well it becomes what people want it to be more than something that is something to be attained and venerated based on an idea. Now you can certainly blame people for that I do.

    Before this term became a fixation some people understood that the way you train is the way you will do. Has this understanding become better? more understood? more clear with this term? Perhaps....
    This actually cuts to the heart of the matter.

    "Aliveness" does not mean "brutal fight that ends with KO or submission". It means "timing, energy and motion". When Der advocated alive training for all his students, regardless of age or (dis)ability, he was saying that these three elements must be present for the training to be any good. Because JJ had a confused definition of "aliveness", he created a strawman (sorry) version of Der's argument.
  9. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 11:57pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    This actually cuts to the heart of the matter.

    "Aliveness" does not mean "brutal fight that ends with KO or submission". It means "timing, energy and motion". When Der advocated alive training for all his students, regardless of age or (dis)ability, he was saying that these three elements must be present for the training to be any good. Because JJ had a confused definition of "aliveness", he created a strawman (sorry) version of Der's argument.

    people often have very different understanding of what aliveness means and I have no problem with that except that imo these things wind up like a discussion about the Tao on Haight street.... and then all bets are off. Heck maybe I do have a problem with that!

    the fact of the matter is to some people its live if you go into a scenerio where there is a sparring environment. To others it is live if there is resistance that is real and true and that will suffice. To others, apparently it is timing energy amd motion that is in real time.

    To be perfectly understood here let me clarify one point: because people have different definitions of the term does not mean that a clear and cogent definition of the term does not exist. I think people who have been here a while do in fact understand and attempt to manufacture clear consise communication regarding training live. BUT I question whether this does not stop the outpouring of very creative and often misleading effulsion that often follows this term around threads here....
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  10. Lebell is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/16/2010 12:47am

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    the solution is quite simple.
    as you grow older you physical capabilities dwindle.
    you lose strength, co-ordination, speed.
    so, instead of fighting a lost battle you must adept to the new situation and change tactics, i can only see two valid options: easy to handle weapons and avoiding/preventing dangerous situations.

    ill add something: you know what this is really about?
    us living in a western society of individuals, we have problems accepting we wil grow old and that strength is a corruptable power/asset.
    whether you like it or not, the older you get the more you will be depending and at the mercy of others.
    that can be a bothering idea for the ego.
    especially when its big.
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