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  1. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 7:22am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    You're arguing for the exceptions to the rule.
    No, I'm not. I'm arguing that there is no excuse to offer people inferior training because you want to discriminate against them.

    Exceptions to the rule?

    What part of Muscular Dystrophy do you think is exceptional?

    Do you even have a cursory understanding of the things you're writing off?

    80 years old. Blind. Reconstructed hip and knee. Recovering from a heart attack.

    Seriously?

    I'm arguing an exception?

    I already teach the disabled & the elderly and they aren't the exceptions to the rule. They are the rule.

    What are you doing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    I'm not, & I'm not writing the elderly off, I'm just a realist.
    You're discriminating against the aged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    Getting them to do a basic CaneMasters self defense program would be vastly more realistic and applicable than "a progressive, alive training program that addresses all modes of combat, armed, grappling, striking, the clinch, & everything in between"...
    CaneMasters is more realistic?

    Really?

    A craptacular mix of Hapkido and karate? Complete with solo kata?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0XAOA1JBa8

    Arm locks off of lunge punches?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHUgJCJBDq0

    Show me any senior citizen who can practice that kata or dead arm lock and I'll show you someone more than capable of engaging in alive defanging the snake drills, hubud, sumbrada, or sparring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    Oh, & please illuminate the issue with your "hat pin aliveness" training program.
    A progressive Kali program developed to adapt to Grandma's individual abilities. The program would be both instructional in that it trained her how to defend herself and theraputic, in that it would provide her with a form of low impact exercise as well as intellectual stimulation.

    You want to write off the elderly, as if they should just be locked up in nursing homes.

    One of the most primary problems for the elderly is lack of physical and intellectual stimulation, something that keeps them moving and engaged. Whether or not they actually ever have to defend themselves, a regular system of alive training, such as Adapt for Life, benefits them far beyond any immediate needs for self-defense.

    Now, you may argue that any system of exercise will do the same for senior citizens, and you'd be right, however, that's a red herring. Just as Bullshido would not recommend dead self-defense training for an adult male, why should we recommend dead self-defense training for a senior citizen?

    You're the one who brought the idea of trying to transform Grandma into a contender.
  2. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 7:28am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cy Q. Faunce View Post
    Not to undercut you, but I moved it to YMAS because I felt the discussion is worth having.:new_olymp
  3. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 7:29am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    Expecting any senior citizen interested in defending themselves to go join the Lions' Den or something is fucking retarded.
    Again, that's your preconceived notion of what I said, not what I actually said.

    Read.
  4. Dargentus is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 7:44am


     Style: Kyokushin, MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Look, its this fucking simple.

    In a REAL fight. you are adreanalised.

    Look up that word I couldn't even be bothered giving you a link.

    When adrenalised your body and entire thought processes act in an entirely different way.

    Training a particular deadly move while in a 'relaxed' state will BARELY help you trying the same move while in an adrenalised state.

    Thus no matter what art/move you do/practise YOU MUST DO IT AGAINST A LIVE RESISTING OPPONENT WHO COULD IN TURN POTENTIALLY HURT YOU. (sorry for all the caps)

    Otherwise, it isn't worth a **** when you get adrenalised.

    Also, there is a matter of will.

    To be able to do the d34dly moves you have to able to react efficiently while adrenalised. And then be willing to potentially kill/disable them.

    Are you telling me you're able to do that?
    And if you're not adrenalised while in a confrontational situation, then you are a psychopath.
  5. Nicko1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 8:17am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    Half of teaching seniors self defense (usually "tricks" and using force multipliers and tools such as canes, umbrellas and pepper spray) is to cause enough inconvenience or discomfort that the attacker/mugger will look for easier prey, and half TO MAKE THEM FEEL BETTER.
    NOT to make them "a contender".
    Riiight. So the first half teaches them things that don't work (or won't work when under pressure, because of insufficent training) and the other teaches them to believe that these things will work. Cool.

    Teaching an elderly woman that all they need to level the field against a much younger, physically stronger assailant is an umbrella and the knowledge that being poked in the eyes hurts is nothing short of irresponsible. Far better to find your limitations, work within them when you must, and overcome them when you can with alive training than to have some unrealistic expectation of a mugger bursting into tears because he got a whack with a brolly.

    If the student is not a "contender", and yet walks out of the class thinking they are, they have been lied to.

    Pull your head out, man, & quit trying to be such a e-hard ass.
    It's good advice, but you are the one who needs it. Any student - regardless of the subject they are studying - deserves the common courtesy of being told the truth by their teacher.
  6. SoylentNinja is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 8:34am


     Style: Judo n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Somebody better tell my 70+ 6th dan to stop doing randori, old people aren't supposed to be doing that anymore!
  7. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 9:02am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    SoylentNinja,

    I'm not talking about people who have been engaged in life-long training. They certainly are exceptions.

    I'm talking about the elderly and the disabled.
  8. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 9:28am


     Style: submission grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This thread has been good for some LOLs. As a grandpa and card carrying AARP member let me through my 2 cents in.
    Iím a 56 yo white belt and train once a week in a no-gi BJJ class. Most of the people that I know around my age are horribly out of shape and consider cutting the grass once a week a hard work out and what I do to be insane. After some classes I agree with them.
    You can teach situational awareness, hand over your purse or wallet itís not worth it, donít walk down the dark alley by yourself and other common sense basics like that. But, here I agree with DerAuslander, in that you canít teach self defense without some sort of alive training if you expect them to fight back. Cane fu will only escalate the situation and make things worse.
    I also agree that there is no reason that you canít do some sort of alive training up to the point where you just things are breaking down too much, which means you probably wonít be out much anyway.
    I would love to see more people my age and older coming to class. It would be nice just for once not to be the slowest person on the mats, sigh, oh well.
    As for how well it works, I can still own all the newbies unless they have a solid background in wrestling and then itís going to depend on how long they have been away from it.
    I see no reason for people in their 50s and 60s not to go reasonably hard. Older than that your mileage may vary.
  9. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 9:51am

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     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Surely, every month someone here puts up a story in the news section along the lines of "Eighty-year-old Whomps Mugger." And sometimes the oldie is a former boxer or soldier, but other times the oldie is just an ornery slab of beef jerky with arms.

    I say let grandma fight! Fight for her little lace doilies and her life!
  10. Big Furnace is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2010 10:45am


     Style: Traditional Wushu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We regularly have students in their mid-50's and up in our internal and external classes. My Sifu is a Physical Therapist and works with a large rehab center. He uses Tai Chi to help seniors recover from injuries and surgery, or to learn to deal with debilitating medical conditions like MS. We have had his patients demo with us at events.

    Are most of them going to bust a move on some muggers? No. One good way of winning a fight is not being in it in the first place. By doing training and getting some experience behind them, they are making themselves less of a target. They hold themselves better. They are more situationally aware.

    If the young punk looking to roll and old person is confronted with said old person assuming a fighting stance, that kid may decide to take a different course of action.

    If a school holds 'women's self defense' seminars as a lot of schools do, these schools are not expecting that they are going to turn these women into Ninja. They are expecting to teach them some simple techniques which can be done to distract, disable and escape.

    Like anything else, the more you practice the better you get. So clearly there is an advantage to anyone, young or old, getting the experience of live training where they get to try techniques against a resisting opponent.

    Youth has the advantage of strength and speed, but experience is just as crucial a factor.
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