Science proves Aliveness(tm) works! SCIENCE!

**helmutlvx** · Posted On: 6/15/2010 9:37pm

SCIENCE!

**TheRuss** · Posted On: 6/15/2010 9:53pm

YouTube- Thomas Dolby - She Blinded Me With Science

**stealth_monkey** · Posted On: 6/15/2010 11:26pm

While an interesting read, the number of people jumping the gun about this proving something or another are worrying. There are several issues with this study that provide an excellent example of what our first year lecturers drilled into us at uni, if the results of a single study are particularly interesting, you're more than likely dealing with a flawed study.
- The use of sample sizes of 5 means flat out that the statistical power of this study is low. I couldn't be assed (and they don't really present enough data) to calculate the power, but it would absolutely be below 50%. Meaning that the conclusions they draw from this study are more likely to be incorrect than correct.
- They found a significant difference between KB and TKD practioners on one of the muscle groups that were tested. Now, unless you're willing to say that an alive training method only effects some muscles, this is an issue. Also, the p value of another muscle is very closely approaching significant. Both of these combine to suggest that their sample size did in fact cause issues with their data.
- Here's the big one which most tma'ers would be able to torpedo the study with. By failing to measure strength as a function of training time within each art, the researchers fail to answer the alternative hypothesis that training time has little effect on strength after a certain point. It could easily be argued given the data presented that after 6 months training in any art, strength gain diminishes as the body adapts to training.

For those who want the tl:dr version: Cool study, needs more science though

**omoplatypus** · Posted On: 6/15/2010 11:48pm

that's why i was talking about seeing the sample pools. it has been shown, with anecdotal evidence, that aliveness works. common sense tells us this as well.

but i have to mention the study from one of my uni's professors about sidewalks. his study goes into great depth about the effects of sidewalks due to their use, but the core issue remained the same. if you build something, it will get used.

so yes, the study confirms our anecdotal evidence and common sense, but we do need a full, peer reviewed scientific study if we want to claim scientific authority on the subject.

**Whacker** · Posted On: 6/15/2010 11:54pm

I'd like to get War Wheel's input on this if he has the time to read it.

**omoplatypus** · Posted On: 6/16/2010 12:08am

he would be more qualified than me

**Whacker** · Posted On: 6/16/2010 12:31am

Comment wasn't directed at you broski, or anyone else here, he's more qualified than any of us. His opinion would be good for us to get, though.

**Hertzyscowicz** · Posted On: 6/16/2010 2:58am

Originally Posted by White Kimbo

that's why i was talking about seeing the sample pools. it has been shown, with anecdotal evidence, that aliveness works. common sense tells us this as well.

From the study, the sample was "10 male subjects: 5 TKD athletes, and 5 KB athletes with an average age of 18 ± 3 years, height of 1.75 ± 3 cm, and
weight of 65 ± 10 kg. The average training time was 5 ± 1 years for TKD and 2 ± 0.5 years for KB. The criteria were that they practiced TKD or KB two or three times per week and were in training for competition. Athletes training only for enjoyment or having any type of muscle injury in the last 6 months were excluded."

Does that answer your question about the sample pool?

I also noticed that the study cites another study that did find that Kung Fu practitioners' palm strikes get stronger the longer they train; Electromiographic and kinematic characteristics of Kung Fu Yau-Man palm strike

**beardedtaco** · Posted On: 6/16/2010 3:13am

There is a girl in my class ( almost half my size ), who has done 10 years of TKD. No idea what type. But I've sparred with her quite a lot, and the speed, angles, and timing of her kicks is really impressive. Her feet are all over the place. It messed with my head a lot out in kicking range. But I realised her kicks didn't have that much power ( at least not enough to knock me out or stun me ). I think if she had been a lot bigger physically the kicks would have landed a lot harder but that's nature for you. So I would just ignore the kicks and wade in with punches to close the distance and clinch. When she caught onto that she started throwing these really accurate spinning back kicks as I'd try to come in and damn they friggin hurt. One of them almost dropped me.

**Vorpal** · Posted On: 6/16/2010 8:45am

Originally Posted by White Kimbo

vorpal, the scientific world is filled with common sense.

get this, one of the professors at my uni wrote his dissertation on sidewalks. what was his thesis statement? if you put sidewalks into residential neighborhoods, people will walk on them.

yes, the man wrote a 128 page dissertation on "if you build it, they will come" but about sidewalks and not baseball ghosts.

the paradox of science is, "if it's such common sense why hasn't anybody proven it yet? because it's common fucking sense and i don't have to do a scientific study on it. well if it's such common sense then how come....."

He should come to my town. Every asshole and his cousin walks right down the middle of the street. They also manage to look surprised everytime a car almost runs them over.