Fairbairn dagger question

[Permalost]

I recently came across a replica of a Fairbairn-Sykes dagger, and it prompted me to look through some of my old WW2 combatives books, specifically Get Tough by W.E. Fairbairn, Combat Use of the Double Edge Fighting Knife, Kill or Be Killed by Rex Applegate, and Arwrology by Gordon Perrigard. At first, I thought that they all used the same type of grip (the foil grip), but it looked like there's actually two variations of it- one where the thumb is held in line with the edge, and one where the thumb is held in line with the flat of the blade. This one actually feels fairly natural with the original style handle, like this one:

in Applegate's grip and knife style, the thumb is definitely held in line with the blade, which I think isn't such a good grip but I get why he picked it. He used a thicker handle with a wider blade as well:

Are these actually two different things or am I just seeing things?

[Sam Browning]

They are two different knives, the first is a Fairbairn-Sykes, and the second a Applegate-Fairbairn designed with the American Rex Applegate. The second version is modified to have a point of balance at the hilt of the knife, and to have a more robust blade that is less likely to break.

[lklawson]

The two different grips were, historically, used for different applications.

The thumb-in-line-with-the-edge, what is here referred to as the "foil grip" (but is now more often called "saber grip"), does indeed most likely derive from sword use. This gives a lot of articulation from the wrist.

The thumb-along-the-flat grip I've seen more often associated specifically with knife, as opposed to sword. When held in the primary hand (as the primary weapon) this tend to turn the blade horizontal and, supposedly, is best for allowing wider blade to align with the rib cage and slip into the vitals easier. As a off-hand weapon, supposedly, the thumb-along-the-flat makes it more natural for a parrying weapon: just point the thumb in the direction of the parry and you automatically the the right movement.

To be fair, the Applegate/Fairbairn/Sykes "combatives" evolution also has a third common grip: the "Convulsive Grip." This is a standard hammer-grip held in a tight clench. The reasoning was that a high-stress encounter would have the person clenching tight anyway and this grip is, further, less likely to loose the knife. IMS, this is an Applegate innovation.

There are, of course, other variations.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[HereBeADragon]

Great stuff here. I am especially facinated with the hand to hand combat methods that came out of this era as its probably the only time in modern history that armed forces had to engage in close quarters combat with any real regularity and with such intensity. I was curious do you gents know of any other authors out of WWII that wrote similar works?

[lklawson]

I was curious do you gents know of any other authors out of WWII that wrote similar works?

Biddle predates WWII, coming out of the hand-to-hand trench warfare of WWI. Nevertheless, his work is very important in this area. He taught up until the beginning of WWI, including teaching CQC to the Feds in the '30s. Styers was his student, also an important CQC figure.

You can see the difference of both his training and his knife (a long, dismounted, bayonet) on his style.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[Permalost]

Great stuff here. I am especially facinated with the hand to hand combat methods that came out of this era as its probably the only time in modern history that armed forces had to engage in close quarters combat with any real regularity and with such intensity. I was curious do you gents know of any other authors out of WWII that wrote similar works?

Some of the more standard ones are Kill or Be Killed by Rex Applegate, Get Tough by W. E. Fairbairn, and Cold Steel by John Styers. Some other ones out there that I like are Arwrology by Gordon Perrigard (this one's actually a Canadian one; I really like it), American Combat Judo by B.J. Cosneck, which has a whole lot of good pictures (they've got old timey wrestling apparel, which I think makes things easier to see. Here's a page with a bunch of pieces from different books from that era:
http://www.gutterfighting.org/techniquesCC.html
Knife stuff:
http://www.gutterfighting.org/knife.html
Stick stuff:
http://www.gutterfighting.org/Stickfighting.html
Gun stuff:http://www.gutterfighting.org/gun.html

[lklawson]

American Combat Judo by B.J. Cosneck, which has a whole lot of good pictures (they've got old timey wrestling apparel, which I think makes things easier to see.

First Edition free download: http://www.lulu.com/product/paperbac...t-judo/4575277

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk