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  1. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/13/2010 8:13am

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7thSamurai View Post
    Am I understanding correctly that the argument for PEDs like steroids is that they provide that game winning edge over an opponent with a similiar skillset? Seems like that cuts out any degree of gamesmanship.

    I think that if you want to do that type of thing, then more power to you. It's your body and if you're interested in using for whatever person reasons or goals that you may have, then you should be able to do so. That said, I don't think you should be involved in professional sports where all athletes aren't engaged in the same activity.
    So. What sport would that be then?
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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  2. JudOWNED is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/13/2010 8:28am

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    I think the whole argument that people are voting with their dollars is bullshit. People watch football and baseball and all major sports becuase they love those sports and because they are major parts of our culture. Do you really think people would stop watching the superbowl if the players were all natural? In fact, I think if steroids were legalized for competition in major sports, you'd LOSE fans. Why the hell do you think most people are in denial about steroid use in pro sports? It's because they WANT to believe it's possible to be that level of athlete through just hard work and talent.

    And look at a sports like bodybuilding and WSM. They are fringe sports that have never attained that much popularity. I think that part of the reason for that is because it is so obvious that those guys are juicing. And so, instead of showing something that the average fan can relate to, it shows guys that are clearly freakishly unnatural. If people are voting with their dollars about steroids, I think those sports are a better example of it than major sports like baseball and football.

    Here's something else. I'm a baseball fan. And I think we have had some really exciting baseball this year so far. The other day I was talking to another guy who is a HUGE baseball fan. The kind of guy who can tell you all the standings in all the divisions and name all the top players in every team at any given moment. I was talking to him about all the perfect (or near perfect, lol @ that ump!) games we've had. Without hesitation he attributed that to the PED crackdown in baseball. The big hitters aren't hitting all the dingers they usually do. So it's opening up room for better pitching, and more tactics in games than just cracking them out of the park. If the crackdown on 'roids has caused the type of baseball we've been seeing this year, then it blows a huge hole in the idea that players juicing creates the type of baseball people want to see, because, we have been seeing exciting baseball.

    And Shammy has almost always sucked. Clearly steroids haven't made him a good fighter.
    Last edited by JudOWNED; 6/13/2010 8:47am at .
  3. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/13/2010 8:39am

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    Just a quick shot:

    Last Friday's Inside MMA covered the Shamrock story, as well as Steroids in MMA in general. I felt like it was a pretty good report, giving many additional insights.
  4. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/13/2010 9:13am

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudOWNED View Post
    I think the whole argument that people are voting with their dollars is bullshit. People watch football and baseball and all major sports becuase they love those sports and because they are major parts of our culture. Do you really think people would stop watching the superbowl if the players were all natural? In fact, I think if steroids were legalized for competition in major sports, you'd LOSE fans. Why the hell do you think most people are in denial about steroid use in pro sports? It's because they WANT to believe it's possible to be that level of athlete through just hard work and talent.

    And look at a sports like bodybuilding and WSM. They are fringe sports that have never attained that much popularity. I think that part of the reason for that is because it is so obvious that those guys are juicing. And so, instead of showing something that the average fan can relate to, it shows guys that are clearly freakishly unnatural. If people are voting with their dollars about steroids, I think those sports are a better example of it than major sports like baseball and football.
    Bodybuilding and WSM are fringe sports because of marketing and limited appeal, in the same way that Boxing is a mainstream sport and kickboxing is not.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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  5. Shawarma is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2010 9:30am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    steroids are not illegal in the UK and yet funnily enough the amatuer competitions aren't [visibly] stacked high with roiders. The same guys who were using them before would use them if they werre made legal. Yes, there would probably be a slight increase but nothing worth whinging about.


    They also cost alot of money for a course. Amatuers have to work for a living. The extra training time they would gain would be minimal in comparison to the pros

    free? No.


    With legalisation would come rules governing the sale and use, as with all other drugs. Also, it would mean doctors would end up actually being equipped to help the guys using them not to **** themselves up


    Not the same kind because they are legal?

    Nutritionists and supplements are also not available to all amatuers due to their cost. In my book the only difference is some prudent idea of 'fair play' that is clearly prevalent in many guys here.

    anyone who attributes 'fair' to fighting has alot to learn. If someone comes in with a knee support you kick the **** out of that knee, if they get cut in training, you pound that cut in the fight. Why is it that these practices which are not 'fair' by most standards are deemed acceptable and steroids are not?
    Point 1: Steroids are not "legal" in the UK. You need to have a prescription to get them legally, as they can be useful to treat a few medical conditions, but selling them is illegal. Legalise it completely, and you would see a ten thousand percent increase in the rate of abuse as access increased.

    Point 2: "They are expensive?" Is this your argument? All that means is that RICH people now have an advantage over poor li'l me because they have the money to buy steroids on top of gym fees. And that's assuming that's even a valid argument, which it ain't.

    Point 3: I meant "free" as in "permitted."

    Point 4: Supplements are not prohibitively expensive if you buy your disgusting **** online. Also, this is not a valid argument. See point 2.

    Point 5: Eh? "Because I can kick you in your injured leg, steroids must be legal!" This is one of the stranger non-sequiturs I've seen today. Unless you actually inject Venom into your veins between rounds, the use of PEDs can in no way whatsoever be linked to your in-fight tactics. "Fighting" may not be "fair" IN DA STREET, YO, but this is a COMPETITION where RULES apply to MAKE IT fair. Having one competitor juice while another does not is blatantly unfair, so the only options are to legalise it for EVERYBODY or to make it completely illegal, and I consider the first option to be foolish.
  6. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/13/2010 9:37am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawarma View Post
    Point 1: Steroids are not "legal" in the UK. You need to have a prescription to get them legally, as they can be useful to treat a few medical conditions, but selling them is illegal. Legalise it completely, and you would see a ten thousand percent increase in the rate of abuse as access increased.
    still easy to get hold of and you aint goin to jail for having them

    EDIT: apparently they are illegal to sell but not illegal to buy so they can be bought legally
    http://www.teenissues.co.uk/Steroids.html

    Point 2: "They are expensive?" Is this your argument? All that means is that RICH people now have an advantage over poor li'l me because they have the money to buy steroids on top of gym fees. And that's assuming that's even a valid argument, which it ain't.
    How is it different from them having the money for better nutrition and training equipment? how is it different from them having the money to pay for a trainer who can provide them with a personalised program that makes them a **** ton stronger than you?

    your beef is with 'integrity' in sport. You're forgetting its actually about winning.

    Point 4: Supplements are not prohibitively expensive if you buy your disgusting **** online. Also, this is not a valid argument. See point 2.
    you saying its not valid doesnt make it invalid. This isnt a debate where you can veto **** you dont like

    Point 5: Eh? "Because I can kick you in your injured leg, steroids must be legal!"
    No. I'm saying the idea of integrity in fighting sports is bollocks, that being the only reason people are bitching about roids.


    Having one competitor juice while another does not is blatantly unfair, so the only options are to legalise it for EVERYBODY or to make it completely illegal, and I consider the first option to be foolish.
    Having one competitor being bigger/stronger/faster/better than another is unfair. life is unfair. If you are that worried about juicers then don't compete.
    Last edited by MMAMickey; 6/13/2010 9:48am at .
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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  7. Shawarma is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2010 9:52am


     

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    I don't think I'm coming across to you - the other guys are the ones going on about the integrity of the sport. While definitely an issue, my beef is that you would HAVE to juice, even as a rank amateur, if you wanted to be competitive following a full legalisation. You'd be pressured into it. And you KNOW that juicing is different from simply having good training facilities, supplements and a decent diet.

    I'd support legalising steroid abuse in the case of regular bodybuilders, however, for as long as they didn't compete at any level whatsoever. But since there's no way of making sure they wouldn't just go off-cycle before competitions, the only way around it is really a blanket ban.
  8. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/13/2010 9:53am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But they aren't illegal in the UK. read my post again.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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  9. Shawarma is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2010 9:58am


     

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    Possessing, no. Selling, yes. Hence you need to know a guy. Hence they are not 1/10th as available as they would be if you could get them OTC.

    My point stands. Legalise fully, 10000% in juicers, inability of non-juicers to be competitive even at amateur levels.
  10. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/13/2010 10:06am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawarma View Post
    My point stands. Legalise fully, 10000% in juicers, inability of non-juicers to be competitive even at amateur levels.
    your point is arbitrary.

    You also don't need to 'know a guy' you can buy them online.
    The fact is they are easy enough to get hold of that if anyone wants to use them and has the funds to do so they can.

    I would suggest that drug testing amatuers would be a better option, as in off season testing for all licensed fighters.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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