Steve Arce credential dispute

**KiwiPhil889** · Posted On: 6/26/2010 3:08am

Originally Posted by Mtripp

Perhaps you should read the release form? I think you will see that EVERY release form to participate in Judo instruction includes the risk of death clause.

Your projections aside, he is speaking quite harshly, and I scolded him for that. But he is in no way threatening any one with harm.

When two dogs go walking, one barks, the other bites. Beware the dog that bites.

Steve is baking, and he has a right to. LOTS of people here bark, all the time. Selective indignation also happens here, all the time.

lol yes,selective indignation is quite normal here,i make no apologies for it.I guess its just my turn??.

I was/am more perturbed by Mr Arces request that a waiver should also include death.This is not normal,(asking for the form to specify it,its normal for the form to have it)and has some unpleasant intonations to it.We all know those types of forms include accidental death,i have signed a couple myself for different reasons,but actually specifying that the form includes death?? sorry,but that deserved to be brought up,and still does not seem to be dealt with,(sorry,but a "scolding"?? for what to me looked like some kind of veiled death threat??plz)

I understand both you and Mr Phillips standing by Mr Arce,you have a right to,for different reasons.However,to date,i see no compelling reason for me to do the same. To be blunt?? He seems to have been damned lucky to have had,and continue to have, people to speak up for him.Any new person who turned up here acting like he has??? pfftt forget about it,they would have had a new one torn.

However,this is MAB's and i do not wish to derail things any more than they already are. I will await the results of the investigation into Mr Arces USMC Judo claims and service.I will also be mightily surprised if Mr Arce can follow the good advice that he has been given by yourself and WW.

**Mtripp** · Posted On: 6/26/2010 3:12am

I care not one wit if you wish to stand up for him or not. My ONLY connection here, as with Chuck Hardin, was to verify their Judo claims.

The results are in, Steve, like him or not, legit Judoka. Chuck, like him or not, fake Judoka.

What ever else your problem may be, it isn't about Judo because that one is settled.

**KiwiPhil889** · Posted On: 6/26/2010 3:41am

Originally Posted by Mtripp

I care not one wit if you wish to stand up for him or not. My ONLY connection here, as with Chuck Hardin, was to verify their Judo claims.

The results are in, Steve, like him or not, legit Judoka. Chuck, like him or not, fake Judoka.

What ever else your problem may be, it isn't about Judo because that one is settled.

lol,legit Judoka was settled quite awhile ago i thought.Personally,i had no issues with that,and still don't. Chuck is a separate issue,that is/has been dealt with in a separate thread.

I do not entirely agree with you statement being that your only concern here is his Judo standing,if so then why the scolding?? it neither verifies or refutes any statements here.But thats neither here nor there.

**BKR** · Posted On: 6/26/2010 4:57am

Originally Posted by Mtripp

Ben, while I understand the spirit of your points, the problem is the Shiai.

Where would you put the highly advanced wrestler who wants to try his hand at Judo? Is it fair to the white/green belts to deal with him? Now, if we put him in the Black Belt divison, and he is defeating Black Belts, what rank should he be?

I think we have all those numbers after Shodan for a reason. The Shodan itself, in my never to be humble opinion, is simply your varsity letter that says you are playing with the big boys. Nidan and beyond... you are going to have to show me something.

Mark, I understand your points, and it is a thorny problem to deal with. I have had to deal with it as a tournament director and as a coach.

This is not the place to discuss it, though. I simply wanted to make sure that Matt and others understood that there is more than one point of view (widely held) regarding shodan. It's not a simple issue, as you know.

Ben

**Mtripp** · Posted On: 6/26/2010 5:48am

Originally Posted by KiwiPhil889

lol,legit Judoka was settled quite awhile ago i thought.Personally,i had no issues with that,and still don't. Chuck is a separate issue,that is/has been dealt with in a separate thread.

I do not entirely agree with you statement being that your only concern here is his Judo standing,if so then why the scolding?? it neither verifies or refutes any statements here.But thats neither here nor there.

I care even less if you agree with me or not. You saying anything does not make it so, and your posts here have pretty much exposed you for what you are trying to do. I "scolded" Steve for bothering responding to people like you. Because it is never wise to wrestle with a pig, the pig loves it and you get covered in ****.

So here is a thought, why not post about your experiences and rank in Martial Arts? Share with us all the things YOU have done. I'd love to hear them.

If not, well, then I guess you have NOTHING important to say.

**Mtripp** · Posted On: 6/26/2010 5:56am

Originally Posted by BKR

Mark, I understand your points, and it is a thorny problem to deal with. I have had to deal with it as a tournament director and as a coach.

This is not the place to discuss it, though. I simply wanted to make sure that Matt and others understood that there is more than one point of view (widely held) regarding shodan. It's not a simple issue, as you know.

Ben

Ben, again with all due respect, it really isn't. Not in Japan where the whole thing started. The only problem with it seems to be here and the "anti-wrestler" bias that has been with us for 40 years.

Plainly, Judo people in the US do not like a wrestler coming in, shooting double legs, getting a pin, and blowing through everyone. When the #1 scoring throw in international men's competition was a pick up, we got the new rules creating Greco-Roman Judo.

However, again, if you think it is a difficult choice as to where to put high level wrestlers, I do not. You see I remember a shiai at the Cleveland County Family YMCA in Norman OK, years ago. The Sooner Judo Club thought it would be "fair" (interesting in light of the legalistic crap around here these days) to take talented OU wrestlers and put them in the Novice division. After all, they had NEVER done Judo before.

You know what happened? They were suplexing people on their heads, and cut a path of broken bodies against people who really were beginners. I NEVER saw any of those real beginners in Judo again. So, Ben, do you really think this is a hard call?

I sure don't think it is.....

**BKR** · Posted On: 6/26/2010 6:22am

Originally Posted by Mtripp

Ben, while I understand the spirit of your points, the problem is the Shiai.

Where would you put the highly advanced wrestler who wants to try his hand at Judo? Is it fair to the white/green belts to deal with him? Now, if we put him in the Black Belt divison, and he is defeating Black Belts, what rank should he be?

I think we have all those numbers after Shodan for a reason. The Shodan itself, in my never to be humble opinion, is simply your varsity letter that says you are playing with the big boys. Nidan and beyond... you are going to have to show me something.

Originally Posted by Mtripp

Ben, again with all due respect, it really isn't. Not in Japan where the whole thing started. The only problem with it seems to be here and the "anti-wrestler" bias that has been with us for 40 years.

Plainly, Judo people in the US do not like a wrestler coming in, shooting double legs, getting a pin, and blowing through everyone. When the #1 scoring throw in international men's competition was a pick up, we got the new rules creating Greco-Roman Judo.

However, again, if you think it is a difficult choice as to where to put high level wrestlers, I do not. You see I remember a shiai at the Cleveland County Family YMCA in Norman OK, years ago. The Sooner Judo Club thought it would be "fair" (interesting in light of the legalistic crap around here these days) to take talented OU wrestlers and put them in the Novice division. After all, they had NEVER done Judo before.

You know what happened? They were suplexing people on their heads, and cut a path of broken bodies against people who really were beginners. I NEVER saw any of those real beginners in Judo again. So, Ben, do you really think this is a hard call?

I sure don't think it is.....

The short answer to your question is, I would put a brown belt on such a wrestler. He/she could then compete in brown/black divisions, not novice divisions. To me, shodan, even though it is the lowest level of black belt, means more than just being able to play with the "big boys" in shai.

In Japan, as you know, shodan is nothing, really, you have high school kids getting them in two years (or less) if they do well i competition. Really, nothing up to and including sandan is a big deal in Japan.

Personally, I think a shodan should be able to demonstrate normal Judo in an acceptable fashion, not just use their highly developed grappling skills succesfully in a Judo competition. Those Japanese shodans are actually doing Judo, not free style or Greco Roman wrestling.

Your anecdote about the wrestlers at OU sounds familiar. I wonder if it was the same coach I am thinking of? Last name begins with "R" ? He took a fresh from NCAA division 1 nationals national champion in free style to a local shiai in Austin, and he hurt several people. "R" found it to be amusing.

The rest of my reply would belong in another thread, so I'll refrain.

Ben

**Matt Phillips** · Posted On: 6/26/2010 6:58am

...so much more interesting than scolding Steve :)

May we have a forum where the only ones allowed to post are Ben and Mark? I would read that daily for the rest of my days.

P.S. Guys, that DOES imply your two have to outlive me.

P.P.S. I have access to Shuai Jiao and BJJ training. I think I might just take my training in that direction just so I can someday batsugan to Shodan.

LOL

**Mtripp** · Posted On: 6/26/2010 7:40am

Originally Posted by BKR

The short answer to your question is, I would put a brown belt on such a wrestler. He/she could then compete in brown/black divisions, not novice divisions. To me, shodan, even though it is the lowest level of black belt, means more than just being able to play with the "big boys" in shai.

In Japan, as you know, shodan is nothing, really, you have high school kids getting them in two years (or less) if they do well i competition. Really, nothing up to and including sandan is a big deal in Japan.

Personally, I think a shodan should be able to demonstrate normal Judo in an acceptable fashion, not just use their highly developed grappling skills succesfully in a Judo competition. Those Japanese shodans are actually doing Judo, not free style or Greco Roman wrestling.

Your anecdote about the wrestlers at OU sounds familiar. I wonder if it was the same coach I am thinking of? Last name begins with "R" ? He took a fresh from NCAA division 1 nationals national champion in free style to a local shiai in Austin, and he hurt several people. "R" found it to be amusing.

The rest of my reply would belong in another thread, so I'll refrain.

Ben

You are right about the person. Problem is many places actually have brown belt divisions. We will agree to disagree.