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  1. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2010 11:28am


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Tomoe Nage in Lancashire Catch?

    In the 1906 edition of Longhurst's Jiu Jitsu and Other Methods of Self Defense, he states:
    The three illustrations, Figs. 33 to 35,[ed:
    Tomoe Nage - named "Somersault Throw"] give a
    capital rendering of the different stages of one of
    the cleverest and most effective throws included in
    the music-hall exhibitions of Jiu-Jitsu that have
    been given in this country by native exponents.
    It will doubtless be objected—and the apparent
    truth of the objection must be admitted—that the
    throw appears altogether too clever and theatrical to
    be of any practical value in an actual encounter; but
    the objection, I feel quite sure, would not be sustained
    were the objector to pit himself against an
    opponent expert at the throw. It certainly gives
    one the impression of being nothing better than a
    showy, exhibition trick. I thought it so myself
    until, in a friendly encounter with a native professor,
    I was one day taken unawares, and bowled
    over in the manner shown. That the actual throw
    is not so impossible as it appears, receives additional
    support from the fact—related to me by a
    very clever Lancashire catch-as-catch-can wrestler,
    who had had close and practical experience of the
    trick throws which enter into the répertoire of the
    most scientific wrestlers of his county, and of which,
    by the way, the cleverest wrestlers of elsewhere are
    ignorant—that a very similar throw was used with
    great effect by Lancashire wrestlers of many decades
    back. Why this particular trick throw should have
    become almost unknown to modern wrestlers I cannot
    say; perhaps because it is a trick capable of
    accomplishment by the very few, and requiring an
    enormous amount of practice.
    Now, I've seen Tomoe in Petter's wrestling, but not in any of the Lancashire Catch texts I've seen (admittedly, not that many).

    Have any of you seen any historic evidence (pics, descriptions, etc.) for Tomoe in Lancashire Catch?

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2010 11:42am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's a very similar throw referenced in Baron de Berenger's "Defensive Gymnastics" (1838).

    IIRC one of the principals in the "boxing vs. jiujitsu" controversy said that the jiujitsu leg-scissors takedown had long been known to British wrestlers as well, and was associated with poachers resisting arrest by game wardens.
  3. Kung-Fu Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2010 12:11pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I haven't heard of any direct evidence for the Tomoe-nage in Lancashire catch, but I can confirm that the technique was certainly looked upon as alien by the newspaper writers recording jiu-jitsu demonstrations, at that time. In fact, now that I think about it, I don't recall having ever seen evidence of ANY sacrifice throws in early Catch. The rules set forth for the Higashi/Bothner bout explicitly stated that if one man's shoulders were to come to the mat while he was executing a throw, he was not to be considered Fallen.

    Honestly, it would not surprise me to learn that some Catch technicians had known of the move; it is a fantastic method for dealing with an opponent who charges recklessly. However, I could also understand why such knowledge-- if it had existed-- might then disappear. I tend to have a great deal more difficulty throwing with Tomoe-nage in a No-Gi contest than I do in BJJ or Judo. The throw loses a great deal of viability without Gi grips.
  4. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2010 1:07pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    There's a very similar throw referenced in Baron de Berenger's "Defensive Gymnastics" (1838).
    I bought a copy but haven't gotten around to reading it yet.

    IIRC one of the principals in the "boxing vs. jiujitsu" controversy said that the jiujitsu leg-scissors takedown had long been known to British wrestlers as well, and was associated with poachers resisting arrest by game wardens.
    Interesting.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  5. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2010 1:15pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kung-Fu Joe View Post
    I haven't heard of any direct evidence for the Tomoe-nage in Lancashire catch, but I can confirm that the technique was certainly looked upon as alien by the newspaper writers recording jiu-jitsu demonstrations, at that time. In fact, now that I think about it, I don't recall having ever seen evidence of ANY sacrifice throws in early Catch. The rules set forth for the Higashi/Bothner bout explicitly stated that if one man's shoulders were to come to the mat while he was executing a throw, he was not to be considered Fallen.
    There is an early newspaper illustration depicting Tomoe from one of the Bartitsu demonstrations. IIRC, Tani won a "fall" in one of his early public Jiu-Jitsu vs Wrestling bouts using Tomoe.

    Honestly, it would not surprise me to learn that some Catch technicians had known of the move; it is a fantastic method for dealing with an opponent who charges recklessly. However, I could also understand why such knowledge-- if it had existed-- might then disappear. I tend to have a great deal more difficulty throwing with Tomoe-nage in a No-Gi contest than I do in BJJ or Judo. The throw loses a great deal of viability without Gi grips.
    I concur. It'd just be nice to have some documentation of the technique existing in LC. As DdlR states, there was a lot of "we already knew that" in the early Wrestling reaction to JJ.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk

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