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  1. rpeterson is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 11:01pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Isshin-ryu, Kyokushinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Give me a book and I'll find it. Otherwise, most of what I've seen pieced together by anyone has been what their sabumnim has told them or what they heard from grandmaster so and so. A lot of hearsay and gossip that isn't founded in a lot of sources. That's no good way to try to decipher what is historically accurate even if you hear the story from more than one person. I was told by more than one person that the Chung Do Kwan was originally rooted in Shotokan, and I've seen it written down in various places, but this was obviously wrong as you've pointed out eloquently or not. Then show me where I can find the truth.

    If you're going to tell us we're all wrong, wrong, wrong, at least provide a way for us to find out what is absolutely correct and factual. As I said, provide me a book and an author, and I'll find it and read it.
  2. dougguod is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 11:07pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    You're referring to John Hancock, who is a friend of mine.
    Yes, just found it: Quest For The Truth: The Origin of Tang Soo Do's Forms, in case anyone is interested.

    When you say that this isn't accurate either do you mean that Mr. Hancock has since revised his opinion or do you mean that you're relying on separate sources that you find more credible?
  3. DerAuslander is offline
    DerAuslander's Avatar

    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 11:22pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by rpeterson View Post
    Give me a book and I'll find it. Otherwise, most of what I've seen pieced together by anyone has been what their sabumnim has told them or what they heard from grandmaster so and so.
    Read the forum stickies before posting here again.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpeterson View Post
    I was told by more than one person that the Chung Do Kwan was originally rooted in Shotokan, and I've seen it written down in various places, but this was obviously wrong as you've pointed out eloquently or not.
    You seem to either have a problem with reading comprehension, or with expressing yourself.

    This is not what you said earlier.

    Nor is it what I said above.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpeterson View Post
    Then show me where I can find the truth.
    You have to be asking the right questions before you can get the right answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpeterson View Post
    If you're going to tell us we're all wrong, wrong, wrong, at least provide a way for us to find out what is absolutely correct and factual. As I said, provide me a book and an author, and I'll find it and read it.
    A book about what?

    About the Korean language?

    About over-generalizing and talking about things that you only have cursory and second hand knowledge of?

    You're making claims.

    Do you have proof?
    Last edited by Jiggle Butt; 6/22/2010 11:25pm at .
  4. DerAuslander is offline
    DerAuslander's Avatar

    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2010 11:24pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dougguod View Post
    When you say that this isn't accurate either do you mean that Mr. Hancock has since revised his opinion or do you mean that you're relying on separate sources that you find more credible?
    Hancock's article is credible to a certain extent and in a certain context, and that is a very specific one, though Hancock may not specify it in the article.

    However, what you and Peterson are talking about is not justified by Hancock's article.
  5. daishi is online now

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2010 12:14am


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Didn't realize the Japanese and Koreans have had an amicable history together. I stand corrected.

    As to anything else I've stated, its from the book I referenced...which a friend let me borrow. I got that impression from Choi's study of Shotokan Karate while living/studying in Japan. Also mentioned was rough treatment he, and other Korean immigrants, received while there. Anyway, as I stated...its a controversial book to my knowledge.

    Ref.
    Gillis, A. (2008). A Killing Art: The untold history of Tae Kwon Do. ECW Press: Toronto.

    * in particular Chapter 2 in whole and pp 21-30 in particular.

    I really know very little else about TKD, TSD, KSD and I've certainly seen books from my own martial arts make wild and inaccurate claims....so I will
    - bow -
    out and leave this discussion to progress for those with more knowledge, as suggested.
  6. DerAuslander is offline
    DerAuslander's Avatar

    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2010 12:41am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daishi View Post
    Didn't realize the Japanese and Koreans have had an amicable history together. I stand corrected.
    That wasn't what you were wrong about. You were wrong about the Koreans specifically calling Shotokan "Dangsudo", and you were wrong about the reasons why they called it Dangsudo".
  7. daishi is online now

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2010 12:59am


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok.

    I also said 7 Kwans, but I believe it was 9?
  8. LThornton is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2010 2:18am


     Style: JJJ/TSD/MT/BJJ/TLA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    That wasn't what you were wrong about. You were wrong about the Koreans specifically calling Shotokan "Dangsudo", and you were wrong about the reasons why they called it Dangsudo".
    Correct me if I'm wrong-- Dangsudo/Tang Soo Do is just the Korean way of reading the same Chinese characters that are used for "karate," right? So you can have a bunch of different kinds of Tang Soo Do. I think you referenced Shorim-something Dangsudo once as being equivelant to Shorinji-ryu Karate at some point.

    I've also been told (unverifiable source: my instructor was told by his instructor) that the Japanese went from a writing that said "Chinese hand" to one that is usually translated "empty hand" now, though it's still pronounced the same, which is similar to the rough translation I've been given for Dangsudo/Tang Soo Do.
  9. svt2026 is offline

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    Carol Stream, IL
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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 1:38pm


     Style: hapkido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Think your missing the point Der108 is making. You said Jidokwon is just a name for Shotokan. While its a name of a school. Reread his post.
  10. Miles is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2010 8:02pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Taekwondo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Taekwondo Jidokwan issues dan and poom certificates still (as does the Chung Do Kwan though both fully support the Kukkiwon). If you wish to verify the certificate, contact GM Al Cole of Cleveland, OH who is very loyal to his Kwan. His website is www.taekwondojidokwan.com.
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