Jidokwan Dan ?

[daishi]

Tang Soo Do is what the Koreans called Shotokan in order to not have it called karate (b/c Koreans and Japanese traditionally are not buddies).

There were, I think, seven original Kwans in Korea. These Kwans merged together to form, eventually, the Tae Kwan Do orgnaization...first the ITF under Choi, then the WTF under others when Choi got pushed out. I'm not too sure how much influence each Kwan had on the overall art of Tae Kwan Do, ie if the merger was more organizational than technical.

[rpeterson]

Thanks for the clarification. I think pretty much every Korean striking art that was involved in creating either TSD or TKD had a Shotokan background. They just had different philosophies. Still, as far as I know, the Jidokwan doesn't issue dan certs. They're just a fraternity of sorts.

[daishi]

There is a controversial book called "The Killing Art" about the history of TKD. Heck even that book hardly mentions Jidokwan. It is often an interesting book, but also can be a little off the wall and goes on tangents as well. Some of the content in there is consider to be a bit outlandish....but I learned a lot from and it pinged some of the more controversial statements off my TKD friends.

[DerAuslander]

The Chung Do Kwan was the Korean Shotokan organization, the pronunciation might not be the same, but it sure is similar. The Chungdokwan, the Jidokwan, and one other that escapes me right now went on to form what is now Taekwondo. I'm pretty sure modern Tang Soo Do is basically rehashed Shotokan as well, but with a few more Chinese MA principles thrown in. You'd have to consult a Tang Soo Do person though, and not one talks about the whole Taekkyon thing.

Lurk more.

Post less.

Cheongdogwan was not a Korean Shotokan organization.

There were more than three gwan that unified to from Gukgi Taegwondo.

[DerAuslander]

Tang Soo Do is what the Koreans called Shotokan in order to not have it called karate (b/c Koreans and Japanese traditionally are not buddies).

Wrong on both counts.

[DerAuslander]

I think pretty much every Korean striking art that was involved in creating either TSD or TKD had a Shotokan background.

Wrong.

[rpeterson]

Please provide me with the history then. It's a pretty big mess to try to figure out. You've got sites like this on: http://www.gbgm-umc.org/otterbeinumc...atehistory.htm
Claiming this:

To decide the name of his new school, Lee used the Korean custom of changing the first name of a child, but keeping the rest of the name the same as the parents. Sung Do Kwan ("Shotokan") became Chung Do Kwan, the name of Master Lee’s new martial arts school. The full name of the academy was "Tang Soo Do, Chung Do Kwan" School. After Korea’s independence on August 15, 1945, other martial arts schools (called "kwans") were opened in addition to Master Lee’s Chung Do Kwan School.


It's a story I've heard before. Which is why I mentioned it earlier in this discussion. Also, the arguments over the origin of the names of Korean martial arts vs the actual origins of Korean martial arts has been hashed and rehashed many, many times. The modern, post-WW II Korean striking arts at least have a much disputed history, can we agree on that?

[dougguod]

Tang Soo Do is what the Koreans called Shotokan in order to not have it called karate

A few years ago I read an article by a TSD practitioner (whose name I can't remember)who claimed that the style was taken directly from shorin-ryu karate. He claimed that their forms were exact copies of shorin-ryu's kata. He may even have specified what book they came from. The author claimed that when he went to a superior (I also can't recall if it was his personal teacher or the head of the org) he was told, as he put it, to "have a nice life" and that that was essentially the end of his TSD career. Is this any closer to the truth than what daishi and rpeterson had heard?

[DerAuslander]

Bla bla bla...Shotokan...Cheongdogwan...

A language breakdown and explanation is in order.

Chinese: 松濤館/靑濤館

These are the Chinese characters for both schools. Note that the first character is different. This is because they are different words, and different names, having different meanings.

Hiragana: しょうとうかん/せいとうかん or しょうとうかん
Romaji: Shōtōkan/Seitōkan or Shōtōkan

These are the Japanese pronounciations of the two names. The romaji is the English phonetic pronounciation. Note that there is an alternate pronounciation of the second name, but that it is still not the same words as the first name.

Hangul: 송도관/청도관
Romaja: Songdogwan/Cheongdogwan

This is the Korean pronounciations of the two names referenced in the above Chinese characters. The Romaja is the English phonetic pronounciation of these Korean words. Note that there is no alternate pronounciation of the second name.

English: Pine Wave School/Blue Wave School

Further, the Cheongdogwan was not a Korean branch of the Shotokan, so calling it the Korean Shotokan is not only completely inaccurate, but it is disingenuous.

Also, the arguments over the origin of the names of Korean martial arts vs the actual origins of Korean martial arts has been hashed and rehashed many, many times.

Then get it right.

The modern, post-WW II Korean striking arts at least have a much disputed history, can we agree on that?

Irrelevant.

[DerAuslander]

A few years ago I read an article by a TSD practitioner (whose name I can't remember)who claimed that the style was taken directly from shorin-ryu karate. He claimed that their forms were exact copies of shorin-ryu's kata. He may even have specified what book they came from. The author claimed that when he went to a superior (I also can't recall if it was his personal teacher or the head of the org) he was told, as he put it, to "have a nice life" and that that was essentially the end of his TSD career. Is this any closer to the truth than what daishi and rpeterson had heard?

You're referring to John Hancock, who is a friend of mine.

No, this is not closer to the truth.