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  1. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/03/2010 11:46am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kambei Shimada View Post
    'Waiste' being the operative word there, sadly i started out in Wing Chun.

    I’ll never really understand the rampant paranoia that seems to accompany the gun-​​loving subculture of the USA that clings to the Second Amendment like a needy ex-​​girlfriend. It’s not just that they hold as a basic right the idea that people should be free to own guns — bizarre though that may be in itself — but the fact that in order to justify that belief they make the argument (contrary to all evidence) that owning guns makes a society safer. The corollary to this, also often stated, is that societies with gun control are either police states, or are on a downhill slope descending into fascism.




    (Also Devil i dont think i even need to address your post you pretty much make my point all on your own.)
    Ah, new we get there, why don't you quote this "evidence" you say the second amendment is contrary to? What totally flawed leftist study would you like to quote?

    The truth is, EVERY state in the US that went "shall issue" their violent crime rate dropped. Yet, the states and cities with outright gun bans, and NO private citizen allowed to carry, they had the highest violent crime rates.

    Kinda seems odd? Like the difference in numbers in "hot" home robberies, meaning the people are home when the bad guys break in, between England and the US. I wonder what they might be afraid of here, that isn't bothering them over there.....
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  2. IMightBeWrong is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/03/2010 1:17pm


     Style: 9mm/Judo/BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    MTripp has it down perfectly in his first reply in this thread. You wear your seat belt every single day because you never know when you may need it, and having a firearm is the same way. Buckling your damn seat belt isn't paranoia, just common sense.
  3. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/03/2010 1:33pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    The truth is, EVERY state in the US that went "shall issue" their violent crime rate dropped. Yet, the states and cities with outright gun bans, and NO private citizen allowed to carry, they had the highest violent crime rates.

    Kinda seems odd? Like the difference in numbers in "hot" home robberies, meaning the people are home when the bad guys break in, between England and the US. I wonder what they might be afraid of here, that isn't bothering them over there.....
    Moving somewhat away from Mr. Tripp's point quoted above (he and I don't disagree all the time :wave:), I recently devised an effective method for understanding why someone (such as myself) might own a gun for the purpose of self-defense. Mind you, this particular method doesn't address the carrying—openly or concealed—of a firearm.

    How to Empathize with Defense-Minded Gun Owners:
    1. Watch episodes of an American television crime drama; Criminal Minds* is a good choice.
    2. Whenever the victim in the story is attacked in his or her home, imagine how the scenario would've been different if the victim had ready access to a loaded firearm.
    3. Imagine the same scenario in multiple iterations, with each iteration adding another restriction to the firearm. For instance: first imagine that the loaded firearm was locked in a safe, then imagine that the firearm was unloaded and the ammunition locked in the safe, then imagine the unloaded firearm was locked in the safe next to the ammunition, then imagine the unloaded firearm and ammunition were locked in separate safes.

    With each iteration of step three, you'll come closer to Canadian federal law regarding firearm storage (Canada forming something of a middle ground between the USA and the UK as regards this issue).

    Legal private firearm ownership allows adults to decide for themselves how to deal with the risk of being placed in mortal danger within their own homes. Some individuals are, empirically, at greater risk than others in this regard. Nevertheless, the law allows this scenario to exist as an individual risk management exercise.

    Going out of one's way to prepare for an extremely unlikely event can easily appear to be paranoid, but that doesn't change the fact that individuals are empowered by the law to come to a decision for themselves. I could pull a maxim out of my ass and declare "Extreme situations require extreme preparation," but that addresses a point which I don't intend to argue. If you don't want to expend the time and money necessary to own a firearm responsibly, that's your business.

    Before I end this little speech, I will attempt to address the carrying of firearms for the purpose of self-defense. I say "attempt" because I don't carry a gun and therefore can't even speak for myself on the issue. Similar to the aforementioned method, however, I think I might be able to help you expand your perspective.

    I am disabled, and my disability greatly impairs my balance. I therefore tend to fall easily and often. Some months ago, I bought a pair of knee pads. These knee pads are of the sort seen on SWAT team members as they are typically depicted on television. I didn't buy knee pads of that type because I expect to have to rescue hostages, nor to look cool; I bought them because I often walk long distances on a gravel driveway for exercise. My disability makes it very likely that I will fall onto said gravel, and that likelihood increases as my distance traveled increases. I have therefore invested money in protecting myself from that damage. I don't have the power to prevent a fall, so I have utilized my power to reduce the damage I take from a fall.

    This is the closest parallel I can provide to carrying a gun. Yes, I am far more likely to fall than most people are to be forced to defend themselves with a firearm. No, my knee pads aren't lethal weapons. On the other hand, how might my health be different if I wasn't allowed to purchase the knee pads because some politician deemed them "military equipment?" How might my health be different if I was allowed to purchase the knee pads, but disallowed from wearing them whilst I walk?


    *Just to be clear, I know that Criminal Minds doesn't depict reality. The nature of the program assumes a gross exaggeration of various violent crime statistics (I don't have numbers to support his claim, but I'm aware of how infrequently new serial killers appear in the news—"the news" being the sum of all media outlets).
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    cuz FastPass on Indiana Jones was like being a ghetto rock star.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiko
    But graffiti isn't a bowl of fruit...
    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    Merely insulting you is not an ad hominem fallacy: them calling you an idiot would be ad hominem if they said "You are an idiot, therefore your argument is invalid."

    What is instead happening is thus:
    1. Your argument is bullshit.
    2. You keep repeating, and expanding upon, your argument.
    3. Therefore, you are an idiot.

    That isn't an ad hominem fallacy; that's inductive reasoning.
  4. money is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/03/2010 4:33pm

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     Style: BJJ, MT, MMA, CQB

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi, I am a left-wing liberal Obama-loving socialist. I own 3 guns, have a pistol permit and have sometimes carried concealed. Having done so has reinforced to me the need to be able to do so. It has not made me paranoid, but the extra responsibility and awareness required when carrying a firearm has caused me to really look at situations differently.

    Have you heard the concept of Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs? http://www.sunnimaravillosa.com/guns/sheepdog.html
  5. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/03/2010 6:14pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: FMA, Ego Warrior

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kambei Shimada View Post
    No i just want someone to say it and It's a fair question.

    You are all fucking paranoid.
    Really? I've watched crack dealers shoot each other in my front yard.

    I kept a loaded 10mm within reach at all times when I lived there.

    England must be some violence free candy land...

    ...oh wait, I forgot, I've seen the carts where your violent crime incidents shot through the roof subsequent to your crushing gun control laws...:XXeyeslam
  6. Kambei Shimada is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/04/2010 4:38am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    When last I checked, English law (Canada too) says you can not own anything that's main purpose is to cause harm to another. Meaning even pepper spray is banned in your country. So your right to self-defense is what?

    I am sure back in 1776 those British forces were very unhappy that the other side didn't follow the spirit of that law.

    Not paranoid, as those who love peace should prepare for war.... :qtank:
    Well No, you're not correct.
    Its actually not that hard to get a gun in the UK. (particularly a shotgun)

    Let me ask you something, Have you ever spent any sustained period of time in a Country with strict Gun Control laws?
    (I travel to the US practically every Summer to visit friends)

    I know this debate has been had MANY times on these boards, posters from the USA tend to state they want guns to defend themselves, whereas members from the UK fail to understand the need for guns.

    I do wonder whether most people in the USA really feel they need a gun go feel safe? if so, it's not a country I'd want to live in.

    I like feeling quite safe without owning a gun, knife or any other weapon.

    (I'm REALLY hungover so i may come and add to this tomorrow when i can actually think)
    Last edited by Kambei Shimada; 6/04/2010 4:41am at .
  7. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2010 5:37am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kambei Shimada View Post

    I do wonder whether most people in the USA really feel they need a gun go feel safe? if so, it's not a country I'd want to live in.

    I like feeling quite safe without owning a gun, knife or any other weapon.

    (I'm REALLY hungover so i may come and add to this tomorrow when i can actually think)
    Wow, you're really delusional about the possibility of a criminal act being perpetrated against you. You're one of those people you see on the news saying "Well, gosh...I never in a million years thought anything like that could ever happen to me."

    I'd hate to be your wife or kids. Good luck with that magic crime repellant you have.

    By the way, you'd make a shitty Boy Scout.
  8. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2010 3:19pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    <<<Well No, you're not correct. Its actually not that hard to get a gun in the UK. (particularly a shotgun)>>>

    Now come on, we have to be honest with one another to keep this civil.

    You are not allowed to own ANYTHING who's primary purpose is to harm another person. You are not even allowed to carry pepper spray or tear gas (OC or CS) and there are major fines if you do.

    The only guns you can buy and own are those deemed "sporting." We both know that. However, you left out what would happen if you loaded that firearm in your home, or far worse, actually shot someone in your home with it.

    Which is why, as I said, hot home invasions are FAR more likely in your country than mine.

    <<<Let me ask you something, Have you ever spent any sustained period of time in a Country with strict Gun Control laws? (I travel to the US practically every Summer to visit friends)>>>

    Japan and Canada. I find it interesting how Canada has such strict laws against any form of PPD's yet even the mall cops wear bullet proof vests. They know the criminal doesn't obey the law, when is why we call them criminals. When a friend of mine had a VERY serious issue in Canada over pepper spray on a key chain, I simply ended my visits.

    <<<I know this debate has been had MANY times on these boards, posters from the USA tend to state they want guns to defend themselves, whereas members from the UK fail to understand the need for guns.>>>

    Well, I think it comes down to "rights," and were we believe they come from. But the bottom line is, I do not spend any time on these boards telling people in England how they should run their Country, I simply ask the same of them.

    <<<I do wonder whether most people in the USA really feel they need a gun go feel safe? if so, it's not a country I'd want to live in.>>>

    Interesting, I feel EXACTLY the same way about ANY Country that tells me I do not have the right to own one, or protect myself and my property for that matter.

    <<<I like feeling quite safe without owning a gun, knife or any other weapon.>>>

    Good luck with that. I remember once some people laughed at me because I had a fire extinguisher in my kitchen. LOTS of jokes about being a bad cook....

    ...I am sure they felt quite safe without one. of those too....

    ...it simply depends on your mind set.
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  9. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2010 1:07pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SFGOON View Post
    So, your exclusive club remark just earned you a sigh and a little facepalm from me.

    But, I didn't shake my head. So you're ahead in that department.

    At least now we all know you're not a felon, a woman-beater, or a mental patient. I'm also glad to hear you're taking a cautiously guarded approach to carrying it right away.

    Now, it is time for you to take your range practice much, much more seriously. Get yourself a competent coach. Pay one if you have to. At about 1,000 well fired rounds, and the same number of quality practice draws, then is a good time to start carrying.

    Get a holster now, because otherwise you'll decide out of the blue you want to carry it, tuck it into your wasteband, and shoot yourself in the penis.

    Other than that, congrats!
    All good advice.

    I usually go through around 200 rounds a month practice from doing steel shooting and USPSA. Although I'm hardly a star player, I get a lot more practice with drawing, shooting under time pressure, "hostage rescue"-type shits, etc, than someone who just qualifies for the permit. I've definitely expended far more than 1,000 rounds (if I had to guess, my lifetime rounds expended might be around 5,000, but it's hard to keep count) in pursuit of these sports, and I've also already taken three tactical firearms courses (2 handgun courses, 1 carbine course) with both a local instructor and a local firearms training institute.

    Again, I still basically suck compared to the people who are very good at the sport shooting, so I'm not saying I'm James Bond or anything.
    Last edited by Wounded Ronin; 6/05/2010 1:11pm at .
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
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  10. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2010 1:09pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kambei Shimada View Post
    Just out of interest, why would you feel the NEED to carry a gun around with you?
    Well like I said, if I put a gun in a backpack and take it to the range I'm technically carrying concealed. So right there, that is one circumstance in which I'd be carrying concealed per the legal definition, and I wouldn't want my life to get totally ruined in that circumstance because I didn't have a concealed permit.


    But I guess you meant more, what would cause me to carry a handgun in a concealed holster around with me every day ready to use?

    I would do that if someone made a credible threat to kill me. I don't expect that would ever happen, but if it did, then I'd plan to carry both .45s, and I'd also wear a level IIIA ballistic vest under my shirt.

    EDIT: I'd also try to carry a lot of ammunition in magazines on my person in that circumstance as well. I mean, I figure you go through all the trouble to carry the firearm, you might as well have plentiful ammunition.
    Last edited by Wounded Ronin; 6/05/2010 1:17pm at .
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
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