How to Discuss Koga Ryu/ninjutsu Lineage Claims

**Styygens** · Posted On: 5/30/2010 8:57am

Originally Posted by yudansha9

i think the banke family is legit. their lineage is legit and can be proven within a reasonable doubt. same with toshitora yamashiro.

I will deal with this politely and reasonably -- once.

If this is your assertion, then I suggest you gather your research together and prepare your defense. Unless you have some previous training in a method of logical argument -- such as philosophy, legal training, or the Socratic Method -- you may want to research formal argument. You may also want to use the search function to see what's been discussed previously on Bullshido regarding ninjutsu claims -- that's polite for "lurk more, post less."

If you believe you have irrefutable proof and can defend it, you should go to the Japanese Martial Arts sub-forum and either find an old thread on topic (there are several; and I think the thread on Kawakami's Koga Ryu claim is still stickied at the top) or start a new one clearly laying out your assertion that these lineages are legit and provide the evidence.

Understand that there are many Bullshido members who are generally knowledgable about Japanese Martial Arts, or the Koryu specifically, or the various claims made by individuals that they hold ninjutsu lineages. Some Bullshido members can speak and read Japanese and will be happy to review images of any documentation you may have. Also, it may be possible to arrange to move parts of the discussion out of public view if absolutely necessary.

Up until this point, there has been no evidence provided publiclly that has managed to convince Bullshido members generally that a separate ninjutsu ryu has maintained an unbroken lineage. You are making the assertion that these Koga Ryu lineages are legit and can be proven, therefore it is up to you to defend and prove your assertion. At least to me, any claim that an unbroken lineage of ninjutsu still exists is extraordinary, and therefore requires extraordinary proof -- "beyond a reasonable doubt" would be a good goal to aim for.

Now, the good news is this: despite our skepticism and our willingness to kick the wheels of any extraordinary claims, there are a few of us who think it would be really, really cool to find a living ninjutsu ryu. I'm one of them. So if you really think you've got the goods: I wish you good luck.

In regards to Koga Ryu, the summary version of the generally accepted Bullshido view is this: Fujita Seiko was the last person to claim a Koga Ryu lineage who was generally accepted by the martial arts community in Japan. He took on no ninjutsu students, and left no heir. He publicly stated "ninjutsu would die with him." I should note that there are some interesting gaps in his own claims. In recent years, a man named Kawakami came forward claiming to have a Koga Ryu lineage. His claim is apparently accepted by the Iga Ninja Museum; however, Bullshido members have noted some bias issues with this institution. On the other hand, he has demonstrated in front of and been questioned by knowledgable koryu experts and they were intrigued. But they did not go so far as to say Kawakami had convinced them his claims were legit.

Of the various groups in the United States claiming Koga Ryu lineage... Whatever it is they may be practicing or skill level they have, we do not believe there is any link to legit Koga Ryu and they haven't proven any.

One last time: if you venture out into the wild talking about your expertise in Koga Ryu, prepare to be dismissed as a joke and treated rudely.

**Sam Browning** · Posted On: 5/30/2010 4:20pm

I stickied this thread for now.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 5/30/2010 4:22pm

Thanks Sam. It was from a trollshido thread and was two good to let sit in the trash dump.78

**Styygens** · Posted On: 5/30/2010 4:25pm

Dang it!

I misspelled "publicly..."

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 6/01/2010 10:10am

You must have a crush on Styygens or something. Go do some push-ups.

That's a decent format for any response to "I know this is true cuz..." claims.

Just take out "ninjer" and insert whatever.

**judoist** · Posted On: 6/22/2010 8:04am

Look, lemme put this in a simple sentence: AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE ANY MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOL THAT PROVES IT'S LINEAGE THROUGH "REASONABLE DOUBT". This is a well known tactic used by fake instructors. Just like Styygens pointed out, Fujita Seiko was the last person to even come remotely close to being a "21st century ninja", but he died in the 20th century, without any students. Get over it.