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  1. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2010 10:24pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  2. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2010 12:02pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I'm a judoka, and I see you have a black belt in Judo. My reservations on the deep half guard "game" revolve around that I typically get solid upper body control when on top in half guard, which to my mind negates a lot of the half guard "game". To me, basic is "control head/upper body, then extract the leg. Of course this is with a judogi, which makes control a bit easier, and I don't do much no gi work.
    It's really hard to get any kind of upper body grip vs DHG.


    "The only important elements in any society
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  3. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2010 9:55pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Spoiler:
    Deep Half guard, take a look at the Brilz and Nogeura fight.
  4. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2010 2:56am

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     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless View Post
    Spoiler:
    Deep Half guard, take a look at the Brilz and Nogeura fight.
    I really liked how that fight showed how DHG can be both a blessing and a curse if you are not careful; for both the person attempting it and the one having it attempted on them.
  5. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2010 10:18am

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     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno View Post
    Ben, I hear what you're saying, and would like to be enlightened as well. Coming from a Judo/SAMBO background as well, if someone catches me in half guard (me on top), I immediately drop low, weight them down, grip far side sleeve/arm, underhook head, and shoulder pressure on their jaw to get them flat and pin their head and upper body. I then begin working my leg out.

    When I am playing bottom half guard, my clubmates do the same thing, and I find it very difficult to keep enough space to get to a deep half. As soon as I catch a leg to get to half, they immediately drop their weight and smash me, shoulder pressure to face. I occasionally head them off by framing up or cupping one of their arms as I initially establish half, in which case I may pull off an old school sweep or something similar, but this is quite rare. Usually as soon as I establish half, they immediately drop and flatten me.
    This is just the nature of the half guard game. Top person is going to want to get head control with the underhook to apply shoulder pressure, and bottom person wants the underhook so that he can get on his side to start working his sweeps. First thing I usually do is get my forearm in his throat, make a little space, and pummel for that underhook, keeping careful not to get caught in an arm triangle.

    I'm a smaller guy, so when I get bigger training partners in my half guard, I too have trouble making space and keeping distance. One thing I've learned to use is the outside butterfly hook, in a half butterfly rather than traditional half guard. Even if you get both underhooks, one under his arm and the other under his leg for the elevator sweep, if you have a good top half guard player, he will shut you down quickly - the butterfly hook gives you a little more leverage so that you can get his hips up in the air quicker and with less effort. Depending on how much space I get, I get my hips underneath for deep half guard or x-guard.

    Aeso has a video of half butterfly with the overhook, but again I like using the hook whether I have an overhook or underhook.
    http://www.aesopian.com/189/halfbutt...erhook-lesson/
    As shown in the video, that hook can also be used to regain butterfly guard. I find that even if the top person is smashing his weight down, it puts your legs in the position for the 93 guard (a la Robson Moura) so that you can at least keep him from totally flattening you if you cannot elevator.

    Regarding deep half guard, Omega is totally right when he says the neck and inside arm are vulnerable to submissions (I lost in the final of a local tourney a while back when I kept my head unprotected in DHG). Protecting your neck is juat a matter of not letting the top person flatten you out - once I slide under his leg, I really clear my top shoulder as much as possible under his leg (using the Stephan Kesting video as an example, he's got the right leg of his training partner trapped, so I'm talking about the right shoulder), so that I am completely on my right side, looking at the same direction as him. Kesting's video has him flat on his back, looking at the ceiling, and I've seen DHG played this way, but I do not prefer it.

    As for the inside arm (would be Kesting's left arm), it's open for kimuras, so as soon as I slide under for the DHG, I like to drive that arm under his leg, keeping it tight to myself as possible so that he cannot swim his left arm under it for the kimura. There are some skirt controls that you can use in DHG, so this puts your arm in a great position to establish those as well.

    Hope this helps.
  6. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2010 11:18am

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, here's my little lecture about this: DHG (as it will now be known) is just a half guard transition. Like anything else it's learning when and where to hang out with it. I would not suggest anybody hang out in the DHG. Wait for attackers to put themselves in it. Hell I have a guard I call the spiderman guard which has everything to do with what I'm doing to aggravate the top person as he tries to pass my guard. I wouldn't recommend it for anybody. Lockdown, half butterfly guard, DHG they're all just sub-positions. I know it goes without saying to most of you but when you put them all together you'll have a decent half guard game. I had one of my fighters become obsessed over this move to the point he decided it would be a good move to pull in his fight, against a Div 1 wrestler, against the cage, without knowing the back door maneuver from DHG. The result was him being tapped with a Darce.

    So, in conclusion, let your opponent dictate on whether you play the DHG (Usually when they pass high) before trying to do this in competition.
  7. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2010 12:06pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless View Post
    Okay, here's my little lecture about this: DHG (as it will now be known) is just a half guard transition. Like anything else it's learning when and where to hang out with it. I would not suggest anybody hang out in the DHG. Wait for attackers to put themselves in it. Hell I have a guard I call the spiderman guard which has everything to do with what I'm doing to aggravate the top person as he tries to pass my guard. I wouldn't recommend it for anybody. Lockdown, half butterfly guard, DHG they're all just sub-positions. I know it goes without saying to most of you but when you put them all together you'll have a decent half guard game. I had one of my fighters become obsessed over this move to the point he decided it would be a good move to pull in his fight, against a Div 1 wrestler, against the cage, without knowing the back door maneuver from DHG. The result was him being tapped with a Darce.

    So, in conclusion, let your opponent dictate on whether you play the DHG (Usually when they pass high) before trying to do this in competition.
    I'd agree that you can't sit there all day long and wait for your opponent to pass. But I do not think you are limited to just waiting until your opponent falls into it. Yes, alot of times your opponent will present you with an opportunity, i.e. if you are defending knee-on-belly, escaping backmount, escaping mount, if your opponent is sliding his knee across your stomach from sidemount to obtain mount, etc.

    But there's no reason why you can't initiate from half guard and enter DHG. I mean if you keep trying to elevator your opponent and just can't make the space to do it, well then, yes of course move on to something else, but that pretty much goes for everything in BJJ. Obsession with one technique or position only blinds you from the rest of your game, but that goes without saying.
  8. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2010 1:07pm

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     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Movement is key with all things, especially on the bottom. If you are not moving between techniques (transitions, submissions, reversals, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah) then you will find yourself screwed. If you are just trying DHG and the various sweeps then the person on top of you can just spend all their time shutting your DHG down since they know you are not going for anything else. Of course, as mentioned, that can be said for any grappling position.

    As for me, I'm both agree and disagree with letting my opponent dictate the use of DHG or any other position. Sometimes (going by that whole yielding thing) your opponents actions may very well dictate what you do next. However, I prefer to dictate my opponent's actions to them.
  9. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2010 3:11pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not saying you can't bait or set up the maneuver but when you force the DHG it'll be harder to obtain. Right now DHG is the flavor of the month. Eventually, like every other game, people will find and exploit the holes. Then people will give up on it. Usually too soon. The lockdown game is the best example of this. I've playing that game well before it was known as the lockdown, so right now I'm ahead of the curve. Same as the rubber guard. Most learn a few tricks and beat their partners and gain some success but in the long run they get themselves into more trouble than it's worth because they didn't take the, roughly, two years it would take to be able to really understand the game.
  10. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2010 8:06pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless View Post
    I'm not saying you can't bait or set up the maneuver but when you force the DHG it'll be harder to obtain. Right now DHG is the flavor of the month. Eventually, like every other game, people will find and exploit the holes. Then people will give up on it. Usually too soon.
    It definitely takes a lot of time to get DHG down, especially since everyone plays it a little different, requires some time and practice to get it in a form that works for you. I think people have already found and exploited plenty of weaknesses in DHG, I've been using it since high white belt and have had to make alot of adjustments in the last 2-3 years.

    My advice to those who are having difficulties with DHG is to look broadly, see how different people play the position (ie Saulo has a short section on it in JJU, of course the Glover DVD set, etc.). If need be, put it on the back burner, because like with most things in BJJ, other techniques and positions can sometimes boost your understanding of whatever you are working on currently. I put DHG on hold for a little bit while I was being taught the 93 guard and sharpening up my X-Guard, so that when I moved to GB Long Island and saw how they played DHG, that perspective plus my work on the other positions gave me new insights into how to apply the DHG.

    Omega's right, anything you work on in BJJ should never be a one-shot-lets-try-it-and-if-it-works-great kind of deal, it's always a work in progress.
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