5/27/2010 6:27am, #1
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
Accounts of various styles of kungfu and other MAs
I found an interesting website, with many historical accounts of contacts between kungfu and other styles, such as muay thai, kyoukushin, etc.
The author is clearly supporting an improvement of kungfu, and wants it to open up to contamination (or rather, "learning") to regain a place among modern fighting arts.
See for example this report of an early 20's match between some Kung Fu "masters" and some Muay Thai fighters, with some interesting pictures and snide comments on the KF masters stances.
5/27/2010 8:44am, #2
just a heads up...when I linked to the second site I got a warning about this being an "attack page". Probably from my firewall at work.
I reported the problem to the bullshido admins so don't click on the page until they have a chance to check it out.
5/27/2010 8:45am, #3
Very interesting site, but it's worth noting that my anti-Virus software is warning me of a Windows virus transmitted through that site. You may want to check your system.
5/27/2010 9:26am, #4
5/27/2010 10:04am, #5
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
Thanks for the heads up.
After some investigation, though, it seems that the parent hosting site (50megs.com) was hosting some malicious pages, a la "geocities", but not this particular one. According to google, in the last 90 days there's been no threats from there. It's in a dodgy network though.
It may be a good idea to avoid that place if you aren't sure of what you're doing. (Or just use noscript, it'll kill any known script attack)
Out of curiosity, what antivirus are you guys using? F-Secure doesn't see any virus but it's not very restrictive. I ask because it's one thing to be in a blacklisted network, another thing to catch a virus that's trying to infect the pc.
Last edited by creativo; 5/27/2010 10:12am at .
5/27/2010 10:06am, #6
Could someone move these to a safer site?
5/27/2010 10:15am, #7
that site is old and has been discussed here at length. i suggest you search for the URL and read the old threads."Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
"When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
"Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
"Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
5/27/2010 10:19am, #8
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
Funny that I just found the same link mentioned in a 2003 post by Hedgehogey.
here's some copypasta, with the pics uploaded from my PC.
Origin and Purpose of Chinese Martial Science Part 19
The First Kungfu & Muaythai Contacts
Left: 06/08/1921 - The First Kungfu VS Muaythai match in history, btw Mr Zi Zheng & the "Highland Tiger" Nai Yahng. Zi Zheng appears to be a master of Southern Kungfu. Right: Master Han Hongdun of Hainan descent facing the "Divine Kick" Nai Tah. Notice his low & awkward fighting stance.
In my early article "A History of Kungfu VS Muaythai", I related how 2 Taiji Masters from Hong Kong got thrashed in the Ratchadamnern Stadium Ring by Thai opponents for the first time in 1958. But almost 4 decades before that, when Muaythai as a sport was still in its infancy, when there was not even a Ring available, Kungfu has already contacted & learned the power of Muaythai!
Left: Master Wu Daqian, also of Hainan descent, facing Nai Loo. Look at how dangerously exposed is his fighting stance. Just what on earth is his right hand protecting on top of his head? Right: Master Fu Xingpeng, again of Hainan descent. Need I say more abt his pretty stance? I suppose these "masters" are absolutely clueless when it comes to real fighting.
On the 6th of August 1921, for the first time in history, an old Southern Kungfu master, Mr Zi Zheng, officially fought the "Highland Tiger" Nai Yahng at the Rose Garden in Bangkok, on a simple wooden platform. He, along with 3 other Kungfu masters, Han Hongdun, Wu Daqian & Fu Xingpeng, all of Hainan descent, tested out the effectiveness of their styles against the early Muaythai fighters in a free-style match-up. How did it go? Well, Mr Zi Zheng was knocked out in a single round, & it was no different for the rest of the Kungfu masters. Without a doubt, they were totally ineffective in a real fight. And the Thai fighters, especially Nai Yahng, gained instant fame for disposing of Chinese Kungfu so quickly. Of course, the Chinese were not satisfied of their defeat as always.
13/05/1922 - The Clash of the Tigers, another Kungfu VS Muaythai match in the susequent year, btw the "Iron Tiger" Mr Lai Hu of Hokkien descent & the "Highland Tiger" Nai Yahng. Notice Mr Lai's low, immobile Shaolin fighting stance, which leaves his face fully exposed.
In the middle of the actual fight btw Mr Lai Hu & Nai Yahng at the Rose Garden. Mr Lai Hu is still using his Shaolin stance, perhaps inviting the opponent to give it to him on the face.
Thus in the subsequent year, on the 13th of May 1922, again at the Rose Garden, they sent yet another well-known Shaolin Kungfu master, Mr Lai Hu, the "Iron Tiger", to face Nai Yahng, who so easily beat Kungfu in the previous year. This match was called the "Clash of the Tigers". Lai Hu, of Hokkien descent, was 20 pounds heavier than Nai Yahng.. but that didn't make much difference in the fight. He fared slightly better than Mr Zi Zheng - he lasted 2 rounds before being knocked out. Truly, he was a "better" fighter than Zi Zheng. 2 months later however, on the 29th of July something much more significant happened. Another Chinese fighter, Mr Li De (also of Hainan descent), challenged the Highland Tiger again and fought him 3 rounds, forcing him into a draw. Unfortunately, there aren't any pictures of this fight. To the surprise of many, Li De was able to knock down Nai Yahng 9 times throughout the fight. The judging was of course biased. What was most notable here was that Li De did not fight Nai Yahng using Kungfu, but Muaythai!! That opened up a Pandora's Box of who has the better martial art, & I think history provides a great relevation to the current state of affairs. According to records, in the years that followed the Li De versus Nai Yahng fight, right up to 1958, only one other Chinese fighter, Mr Yun Jie, has fought the Thais. Once on 31st of January 1929 & another time on 3rd of October 1930. He won the former fight & lost the latter. Like Mr Li De, he used Muaythai.
Mr Mahachon, among the first Thai ex-pro fighters teaching Muaythai in China. He started practicing Muaythai at the age of 12, holding a record of 120 fights, 110 wins, 5 draws & 5 losses, & was awarded a golden championship belt. Currently teaching in the Guangzhou Muaythai Club of Canton.
If there is one lesson that history teaches us about Kungfu, from the old days of classical nonsense right up to the mix & match Sanda ringsport of today, is that no matter what the Chinese do to their native fighting style, they still can't really beat the Thais at the fighting game. If there is any solution to this problem, I can only see it in the fists of old time fighters like Li De, Yun Jie, & modern fighters like Wang Sanzhen (who beat his Thai opponent on 5th of December 2001 using a mix of Muaythai & Sanda). When will the Chinese drop their silly egoism & start learning from the good points of others? Nevertheless, it is encouraging to know that recently there's already Thai coaches who were ex-pro fighters teaching in China. Before that only the Beijing Police had the privilege of learning authentic Muaythai. But now, in Guangzhou, the capital of Canton, there's Mr Mahachon (above) who has brought instruction to the masses there. Although Mahachon believes deeply in Muaythai, he is also wise enough to see some of the good points of Sanda & learning from them. He admits that he is in China "for the money", he makes the most of what fees people pay him by being very dedicated in his teaching. Another significant phenomena that I see here is that of all the peoples on the vast China Mainland, the first people to accept Muaythai openly are the Cantonese. The Cantonese are known to be forward thinking, and the many Great Men to issue forth from Canton, like Mr Sun Yat Sen, are a testimonial to this trait. It makes one proud to be of Cantonese descent. I believe that Mr Mahachon's presense in Guangzhou is destiny, & surely a sign of greater things to come.
* Some readers are asking me why on the one hand I'm advocating modern Sanda to take roots in traditional kungfu & on the other hand I'm showing everyone how obsolete these styles are. I know that I appear to be self contradicting in my viewpoints but if you read my articles in detail you will know that actually this is a mistaken impression. It is true that most traditional styles are obsolete, but as I wrote in my previous article, there is a small number among the hundereds of Northern & Southern styles that stand out from the rest due to their historical track record of combat effectiveness. It is these styles, not others, that should be drawn from. To draw from them is not to give up on the modern & become full traditional stylists once more, but rather to use them as a source of fundamental fighting concepts. This is the same way as Bruce Lee used Wing Chun as a base upon to build JKD. Besides taking roots in proven traditional styles, at the same time one should also not be afraid to learn from Sanda, Muay Thai & Jujutsu etc, in order to make your CMA style truly all rounded. It is important to retain old traditions that are stll relevant, but it is just as important to keep up with progress by studying what modern times have to offer. That's my one & only viewpoint on CMA, as well as on life. Hope this will clarify your doubts.
5/27/2010 10:21am, #9
This is what I got when I went there:
The HTML/Emerleox was detected in D:\USERS\293109\TEMP\TEMPORARY INTERNET FILES\CONTENT.IE5\V09EG8QT\INDEX.HTM.
Status: No cure for this infection.
5/27/2010 9:59pm, #10
- Join Date
- May 2010
Well viruses aside. These masters are probably not really masters. I went and talked to my ex-teacher of my martial art (I've quit for about a year but still do train in what I've learned over 7 years). Apparently martial arts contact has been around but just not recorded for many years. Most of the so-called masters of that time weren't even the head disciples of their schools. All of the best masters were constantly traveling around asia to develop their skills and have new techniques. And the weirdest thing about it is that even though they traveled and gained new techs they never did open big schools but most of them had only small schools that taught practical kungfu. I was lucky enough to be in one of these schools where they taught me practical long fist(chang quan), Southern Fist (Nan Quan) and also taught us how to use Qigong to defend ourselves.