Armbar from the turtle

[Yrkoon9]

I used to have a go-for-broke submission attempt style.

Now I won't give up the back for an armlock. I just won't give up that position. I don't want to end up in guard if at all possible. Just too much risk.

[Res Judicata]

This is mostly a judo thing -- holding the back is counterproductive in Judo and there's no real risk in losing position in this particular way. Judo encourages the go-for-broke style.

In BJJ, I'm trying to use this as an alternative to putting in the second hook. Everyone defends that second hook pretty well. And working on this move for the last month or so in BJJ, I haven't failed to at least turn the guy over. Even when I miss the armlock I'm still in or close to mount.

[Joz]

I really like this version from a head on approach...

YouTube- Juji gatame

[sambosteve]

I really like this version from a head on approach...

YouTube- Juji gatame

I really like this one a lot.

Regarding the posting series...When grappling and not worrying about pins, etc, I like Resnick's (great guy BTW). I also prefer to keep the shin on the back of the neck as Resnick does if the guy is really burrying his head, it offers great leverage and control over the guy...especially if you take him heels over head. If he lifts his head, like Josh said, then go for the front of the face.

In any event, the one of mine you posted is not one that I nail often and is mainly useful for preventing a guy from going belly down to avoid a pin. We used to practice that on a belly down partner as well. But, it is true that the arm is often not available and it is very snatch and grab in terms of getting the arm.

I was looking to find some vid of me doing it (just to analyze myself). I did find this vid of some rolling with the guys at my coach's club. I do the roll at about 9:30

YouTube- Sambo Training at the FKE

[Res Judicata]

I recently picked up the Judo Masterclass set. The armlocks book and the Russian Judo books are full of awesomeness in this area.

I didn't know that entry from the Kodokan course. But I'm going to try it! On a first look, the grips and entry are similar to Kashiwazaki-style obi tori gaeshi turnovers that I use. I love ambiguous entries.

[Res Judicata]

My last post was pretty low content. Let me improve it. Here are a few obi tori gaeshi turnovers, including one by Kashiwazaki, that use basically the same entry as that armbar:
YouTube- Kashiwazaki turnover

Another:

YouTube- OBI TORI GAESHI (Volteo) Atras

And another:

Dailymotion - Obi tori gaeshi - une vidéo Sports et Extrême@@AMEPARAM@@http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/video@@AMEPARAM@@video

[Carborundum]

Am I supposed to be able to see pictures or videos in the original post? I can't see anything, so I'm not sure which armbar is which.

[jnp]

Am I supposed to be able to see pictures or videos in the original post? I can't see anything, so I'm not sure which armbar is which.

Hit the quote button and copy and paste the links into a new window for now. Invisible links have been an issue since the Phrost upgraded the servers. You can see below the links are visible in the quoted post.

I've been studying and trying to perfect my rolling armbar from the turtle. It's become a very high percentage move, either leading to the submission, or, at least, a turnover. I'm also fond of it off of a "failed' double under hook sweep.

But which rolling armbar? I've been taught, done and seen at least a half-dozen variations. I'm really looking for advice on the best versions and the tiny details. They all work if someone leaves the arm out, but guys get pretty good at hiding the arm and defending the armbar.

The worst problems seem to be getting stuck and unable to turn him over and, to a lesser extent, ending up fighting to get the arm when he over on his back.

1. The first version is what I think of as the snatch and grab. Here's sambosteve doing a version:

YouTube- Advanced Sambo Martial Arts : The Rolling Arm Bar Move in Sambo Martial Arts

And a BJJ practitioner:

YouTube- Paulo Guillobel - Rolling Armbar from Opponent's Back

This general type is good when going from standing to the ground, but I haven't found it really suitable for pure groundwork. There's also the snatch and grab element -- you have to get the arm on the move and don't control it before turning him over. But it does have a dynamic and surprising nature. I do it in Judo sometimes when guys start turtled for the amusement value.

2. This next version is from turtle/back mount.

YouTube- Rolling Armbar from Rear Mount

It's a pretty standard attack but I think it has some flaws. I like that it controls the arm, although I haven't played with the particular gripping sequence. What I don't like the position of the leg head near the head. It's easy to get stuck there. I think it's inferior to the next few versions.

3. Next up is the one I try to do most of the time (with mixed results). I think of this as the "Judo" version, simply because that's where I learned it. Ironically, the best instructional I found is no gi video (although the person instructing is a Judo yondan). (Reznick has some great competitive technique videos -- his o soto gari is money).

YouTube- Judo or Jiu Jitsu Armbar from Turtle Technique

This version is great because of the leverages involved and the fact that the arm doesn't have to be out or exposed to make it work. It's kinda nasty to be on the receiving end.

4. Here's a similar version.

YouTube- Juji from turtle

5. And another: Here's another -- notice the difference in when the foot goes from the back to the front of the neck in this and the preceeding videos.

YouTube- Judo Arm Bar

6. Finally, there's also a armbar from the turtle where you grab the arm, get one or both legs over and pull backwards (rather than going forward). It's kind of a power/dick move. You don't make friends doing that one. I never do that version. I couldn't find a video, though.

Am I missing any major variants? Which versions have you had the most success with? Any other tips or tricks?

[judoka_uk]

I only just stumbled across this thread and was surprised no one showed the actual Neil Adams version of this the Judo style turnovers were all Iatskevitch ones.

I learnt Judo from someone who trained under Neil Adams for the best part of 10 years and so pretty much all my Judo comes from stuff Adams teaches.

I see so many people mess up the Adams roll because amazingly they miss the critical part. I think the Adams roll is more powerful than the Iatskevitch and offers more control as the roll is being completed, but maybe I'm baised.

The key to the Adams roll, the thing that is literally 99.999% of the roll is how Adams secures the arm he's attacking. When Josh Resnick talks about pressure in the Iatskevitch its nothing compared to the Adams roll. The Adams roll is almost entirely dependent on pressure and pain to induce uke's roll and as such is brutally effective.

You enter for Adams roll by inserting one leg in between a turtled uke's legs in the manner Josh Resnick shows in his video. Then you do what Adams calls 'the catch'. Adams favours attacking on uke's left side, but most people prefer doing it on the right, Adams inserts his left leg in between uke's legs, like in Resnick's video, then he 'catches' uke's with the arm closest to uke's feet. He inserts it palm up and as he inserts it he drops into position using his right arm and head for stability.


Adams inserts the leg


Adams 'catches' the arm.

The right arm and head are very important for stabilising yourself in establishing the arm control. Your head musn't be too close to uke's body and you want your body to positioned so it is almost forming an L shape with uke's body. Your body forming the horizontal line of the L and uke's the vertical.



Once you have your right hand and head on the mat you start to use your left arm to draw out uke's caught arm. Putting pressure on the inside of the elbow to create space.

Then balancing purely on your head bring your right hand in to grasp uke's wrist with your right hand and then grip your own right wrist with your left hand.



The core of the Adams roll has now been estbalished. This ude garami grip is what generates the pressure that causes uke to turn.

You then use your leg and stomach muscles to stretch out uke's caught arm whilst holding with the ude garami grip. This is why leaving big enough gap between your posted head and uke's body is vital otherwise you hurt your own neck and can't do it. Adams is almost applying an upside down bicep slicer from the turtle at this point and done properly it is already starting to hurt.

You now bring your right leg round and place it at the top of uke's head or if you can manage it under uke's head, on their face. Many people though prefer placing it on the top of uke's head. Adams aims to bring it under uke's face so that when he rolls he doesn't have to swing his leg over to catch the head.



Now you turn onto your side twisting uke's arm, holding with the ude garami grip, towards his head and keep on twisting towards his head so that there is so much pressure and pain uke wants to roll over to escape it. Adams is simultaneously applying a bicep slicer and a shoulder lock as he does this move.



To assist in the roll Adams uses the leg that was inserted in between uke's legs as a hook to help bring the lower part of uke's body over with him. Although the core of the technique remains the pressure applied to uke's elbow and shoulder through the ude garami grip which makes them want to roll to escape it.

Uke then starts to roll, use your foot to assist them over and control their roll so that you keep everything tight once their land on their back and maintain the ude garami grip. If you didn't manage to get your foot under their face as they complete their roll bring your foot round and over their face to prevent them escaping.

Then use whatever methods you feel most comfortable with to break any defensive grips uke may have established.

I can not emphasise enough how important getting the ude garami grip on uke's arm is. If you don't do this and your fighting anyone who's as strong or stronger or as heavy or heavier you basically won't roll them unless you go for the Iatskevitch legs option, but to do that entails switching which arm you're gripping uke with so you might as well ude garami whilst you're there...

The fighting films video basic armlocks the grappling series explains this very well. All the images I used for this post were taken from it. If you want to learn how the Neil Adams roll is done and don't have access to someone who knows how to do it properly that video is the next best thing.

[jnp]

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