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  1. Conde Koma is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2010 2:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo,MT,Boxing,BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Schiavello Talks About Wrestling in MMA

    http://www.heavy.com/mma/2010/05/is-...d-martial-arts

    He says a lot of stuff, nothing too different than what people have generally been criticizing wrestlers for. There are some choice bits, though, in particular this interesting gem:
    Indeed a further question could be: have American wrestlers taken the martial arts out of Mixed Martial Arts? (as a side note, I never actually liked the phrase Mixed Martial Arts. Boxing is not a martial art, nor is wrestling, nor is street fighting, yet we have Mixed “Martial Artists” competing from these backgrounds. The name MMA was coined by Rick Blume [some say Jeff Blatnick] but I always thought Mixed Fight Sports (MFS) or Mixed Combat Sports (MCS) would be a far more suitable name).
    I'm still a big fan of his commentary, but I gotta say I think it's bogus that he doesn't think "martial arts" applies to boxing or wrestling. I guess he's still sort of a traditionalist?
  2. Adam_F is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2010 3:34pm


     Style: bitchin' and whinin'

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    Is that the thing in the English speaking world since the 70's where "martial arts" means asian combatives; Bujitsu or Wushu or whatever? I'm sure someone in the WMA knows where the phrase really comes from but I think it always meant military arts and was only used to describe Asian combatives as the best fit translation when they started to be known in the West.

    Boxing and wrestling weren't traditionally martial arts because they weren't battlefield arts like archery, but in that sense; neither are most Asian combatives.

    As the term has evolved to cover these systems over time, there's no need to be snobby about the oldest fighting systems we know!
  3. Uglybugly is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2010 4:06pm


     Style: judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conde Koma View Post
    I'm still a big fan of his commentary, but I gotta say I think it's bogus that he doesn't think "martial arts" applies to boxing or wrestling. I guess he's still sort of a traditionalist?
    I guess he associate the term martial arts with unfit half witt old guys.
    We should get this guy to post here. I think he would fit right in
  4. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2010 5:19pm


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    He has always had a heavy bias toward K-1 competition, often referring to K-1 competitors as "martial artists" and MMA competitors as "fighters." It could be that he came up via knockdown karate's evolution into K-1 style kickboxing and he's never lost that perspective.


    EDIT: When I say "always," I'm referring to the five years I've known about him. Far from his entire career, but consistent behavior nonetheless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    cuz FastPass on Indiana Jones was like being a ghetto rock star.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiko
    But graffiti isn't a bowl of fruit...
    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    Merely insulting you is not an ad hominem fallacy: them calling you an idiot would be ad hominem if they said "You are an idiot, therefore your argument is invalid."

    What is instead happening is thus:
    1. Your argument is bullshit.
    2. You keep repeating, and expanding upon, your argument.
    3. Therefore, you are an idiot.

    That isn't an ad hominem fallacy; that's inductive reasoning.
  5. Strifes is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2010 6:32pm


     Style: CSW BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Indeed a further question could be: have American wrestlers taken the martial arts out of Mixed Martial Arts? (as a side note, I never actually liked the phrase Mixed Martial Arts. Boxing is not a martial art, nor is wrestling, nor is street fighting, yet we have Mixed “Martial Artists” competing from these backgrounds. The name MMA was coined by Rick Blume [some say Jeff Blatnick] but I always thought Mixed Fight Sports (MFS) or Mixed Combat Sports (MCS) would be a far more suitable name).
    If wrestling and boxing "mma" are not martial arts, what does that say about present day traditional martial arts and so called martial artists? It's like his reasoning is if anything contains a high amount of athleticism it cant be considered MA, and that's a bit sad.
  6. shelbydeth is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2010 8:32pm


     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I like how he included GSP in his list of "martial artists". I guess it doens't matter if you rape your enemies with wrestling as long as you have a krotty belt.
  7. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2010 2:07am


     Style: sambo, stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam_F View Post
    Boxing and wrestling weren't traditionally martial arts because they weren't battlefield arts like archery, but in that sense; neither are most Asian combatives.

    As the term has evolved to cover these systems over time, there's no need to be snobby about the oldest fighting systems we know!
    Boxing (as a quite modern ruleset for fist-fighting) is a bit problematic, but wrestling allways was a battlefield art. There is a huge load of historical evidence for its use both in war preparation and actual combat.

    Funny enough, there seems to be no such evidence for 90% of the classical asian "martial-arts" like Karate. Even worse, if Karate acutally had been used in warfare, it would be proven ineffective by historcal events. The okinawans got butt-raped by the satsuma-clan who invaded them in 1609. They never managed to shake off that occupation, subsequently becoming a part of Japan in 1879.

    What did all those great karate masters do, while their fellow okinawans were oppressed (and, according to lots of sources mistreated in a plethora of unspeakable ways) for hundreds of years? Twiddle their thumbs?
  8. Adam_F is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2010 2:32am


     Style: bitchin' and whinin'

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Boxing (as a quite modern ruleset for fist-fighting) is a bit problematic, but wrestling allways was a battlefield art. There is a huge load of historical evidence for its use both in war preparation and actual combat.
    Interesting about wrestling, is that something like the Jujitsu stories; something to do if the sword breaks, I'd like to see wrestling in full armour. So wrestling has more right to be called a martial art!
  9. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2010 3:35am


     Style: sambo, stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam_F View Post
    Interesting about wrestling, is that something like the Jujitsu stories; something to do if the sword breaks, I'd like to see wrestling in full armour. So wrestling has more right to be called a martial art!
    It definitly has. Interestingly, in medieval and rennaisance european literature wrestling is portrayed as an integral part of fighting. Think of attacking with halberd/sword/mace/dagger, closing the distance/shooting in, throwing/tripping the opponent and then finishing him off with the weapon. Quick and dirty. No fencing, no dancing.

    If you want to learn more about this topic, I would advise you to visit the WMA section of Bullshido. Even though on maps it would probably be marked with "Here be larpers". :-)
    Last edited by kwan_dao; 5/23/2010 3:42am at .
  10. Adam_F is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2010 4:22am


     Style: bitchin' and whinin'

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Intentional LARPing looks fun! I'd love to try some of the medieval stuff one day too, it's only delusional LARPing that's a problem, which I've seen more with martial arts practiced far from their place of origin.
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