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  1. ciscodog is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2010 10:57am


     Style: shorin ryu/bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i actually had him working with pads for a bit last night, but still would like him to learn some dominant positioning for control of the bully rather than knocking the kids teeth out.
    I think that way he can honestly tell the principal etc that he wasnt trying to hurt the bully, just not get hurt himself.
  2. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2010 11:09am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If the kid is worried about getting it he need to learn blocking/parrying/checking/whathaveyou and how to roll with the punches. The latter is more important because it will teach him he can take a hit and keep on going. A problem why a lot of people don't fight back is because they don't know how to take a punch they get hit and they freeze up. Being able to take a hit and still defend yourself is a valuable too.

    As far as RNCs etc go I say they are a GOOD thing. They saved my ass in middle school but I was much more sneaky about it. Unfortunately the policy at my school was you fight you get suspended, period! I got in a fight and even though I never threw a punch I simply blocked, deflected and pushed the guy away I still got suspended! I was proud of my grades AND my attendance record which got shot for something I didn't start. Eventhough my attacker didn't hurt me he didn't stop because since I didn't fight back he figured I was fair game. Once I came back to school he started again but I didn't want to get suspended again so I waylayed him. I waited to I saw him go into the bathroom and went in after him he was at the urinal and I RNCed him and dragged him into a stall and left him. I knew he wasn't going to tell that he got jumped and pissed on himself so I felt that sent a message. He tried to come up to me about being a punk and jumping him in the bathroom and I told him it will happen again and will get worse everytime you mess with me. He got the picture and left me alone. This became my M.O. all through out high school too. On campus I will get you in the bathroom. Off campus I had little problem beating your ass.

    My daughter is now in middle school. She is a straight A student and gets inducted into the National Junior Honor Society this Friday (I wish so much that I could be there) I've been teaching here Judo and Boxing since she was 7. She had her first bully when we were in Georgia. She didn't want to get in trouble at school but she also had to walk home the same way with the girl. She asked me what to do and I told her that was what the Judo was for. If she lays a hand on you or threaten to do so you have to put her down hard so she gets the message. She took it literally and slammed her with an Osoto gari on the sidewalk. We move to North Carolina and she has to go through being the new kid. The next would be bully got thrown, mounted, and punched in the face after she hit my daughter. My daughter said the girl didn't hit as hard as I did so she knew it was going to be easy.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  3. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2010 11:10am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If the kid is worried about getting it he need to learn blocking/parrying/checking/whathaveyou and how to roll with the punches. The latter is more important because it will teach him he can take a hit and keep on going. A problem why a lot of people don't fight back is because they don't know how to take a punch they get hit and they freeze up. Being able to take a hit and still defend yourself is a valuable too.

    As far as RNCs etc go I say they are a GOOD thing. They saved my ass in middle school but I was much more sneaky about it. Unfortunately the policy at my school was you fight you get suspended, period! I got in a fight and even though I never threw a punch I simply blocked, deflected and pushed the guy away I still got suspended! I was proud of my grades AND my attendance record which got shot for something I didn't start. Eventhough my attacker didn't hurt me he didn't stop because since I didn't fight back he figured I was fair game. Once I came back to school he started again but I didn't want to get suspended again so I waylayed him. I waited to I saw him go into the bathroom and went in after him he was at the urinal and I RNCed him and dragged him into a stall and left him. I knew he wasn't going to tell that he got jumped and pissed on himself so I felt that sent a message. He tried to come up to me about being a punk and jumping him in the bathroom and I told him it will happen again and will get worse everytime you mess with me. He got the picture and left me alone. This became my M.O. all through out high school too. On campus I will get you in the bathroom. Off campus I had little problem beating your ass.

    My daughter is now in middle school. She is a straight A student and gets inducted into the National Junior Honor Society this Friday (I wish so much that I could be there) I've been teaching here Judo and Boxing since she was 7. She had her first bully when we were in Georgia. She didn't want to get in trouble at school but she also had to walk home the same way with the girl. She asked me what to do and I told her that was what the Judo was for. If she lays a hand on you or threaten to do so you have to put her down hard so she gets the message. She took it literally and slammed her with an Osoto gari on the sidewalk. We move to North Carolina and she has to go through being the new kid. The next would be bully got thrown, mounted, and punched in the face after she hit my daughter. My daughter said the girl didn't hit as hard as I did so she knew it was going to be easy.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2010 11:17am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    This is all good advice. You should check whether his school has a "zero tolerance for fighting" policy; chances are that it does. At worst, that means that any effective physical action he takes in his own defense is likely to be interpreted as "fighting" by the school administration and lead to his being suspended or expelled (or, sad and ridiculous but true, even arrested).

    Some schools are starting to modify zero tolerance policies to take circumstances such as self defense into account, but I wouldn't rely on that. We now have a whole generation of teachers and administrators who have been conditioned to think that "it takes two to fight" and that it is always possible to "just walk away".

    Either way, I would train him take an obviously defensive stance (like a boxing guard but with the hands open) and to loudly say "I don't want to fight!" before and during the bullying incident. Witnesses and security cameras may miss the technical details of physical action, so if he has time before it goes down he should make a big (tactical) show of how he is "the victim" and is trying not to fight.

    If the bully is injured it's highly likely that the school will punish the defender regardless, so any takedowns should be as safe as possible; upper-body takedowns that protect the bully's head from impact with the floor are best.

    Finally, as Mtripp suggested re. Dr. Webster-Doyle, good conflict resolution and conflict management skills can be trained through role-playing and are at least as valuable as physical defense skills.
    This is all bad advice IMO. Sounds great, does not correspond to reality. Maofas has it nailed.

    Just my $0.02: Every single time this happens and the school finds out about it, KK gets suspended. Every single time I ask them"Did he throw the first punch? Has he EVER thrown the first punch in ANY incident you know of?" They always have to answer NO, and they often are forced to give the other child a more severe punishment. Bottom line: if your kid is not starting fights, she is not getting expelled or sent to juvvie.

    @maofas "single dads working" fixed!
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  5. shelbydeth is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2010 11:17am


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by devil View Post
    I know as an instructor, you can't tell the kid this...

    But if it was my son, I'd tell him to find a weapon and beat the dog **** out of the kid. Take the lock off his locker and loop it on a leather belt. That works nicely.

    When I was in the seventh grade, one of my friends put his lock in his hand with the clasp over his finger like brass knuckles and laid out this gargantuan missing link girl who had been relentlessly fucking with him. It was epic.

    A good sturdy book works well, too. Whatever is handy. Obviously, I wouldn't recommend stabbing the little **** with a pencil or anything, although he probably deserves it. That would just cause too much of a **** storm.

    Schools don't do **** to kids for whacking someone with a random blunt object. If it's something that's actually designed to be a weapon, people get their panties in a bunch. If it's something the kid picked up in the hall, nothing serious will happen. He'll get suspended from school. Big deal. It's eighth grade. Colleges don't look at records from middle school. He should whip some ass and make an impression that people will remember.
    Repped for manliness (Plz don't follow this advice though!)
  6. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2010 11:24am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    If the kid is worried about getting it he need to learn blocking/parrying/checking/whathaveyou and how to roll with the punches. The latter is more important because it will teach him he can take a hit and keep on going. A problem why a lot of people don't fight back is because they don't know how to take a punch they get hit and they freeze up. Being able to take a hit and still defend yourself is a valuable too.

    As far as RNCs etc go I say they are a GOOD thing. They saved my ass in middle school but I was much more sneaky about it. Unfortunately the policy at my school was you fight you get suspended, period! I got in a fight and even though I never threw a punch I simply blocked, deflected and pushed the guy away I still got suspended! I was proud of my grades AND my attendance record which got shot for something I didn't start. Eventhough my attacker didn't hurt me he didn't stop because since I didn't fight back he figured I was fair game. Once I came back to school he started again but I didn't want to get suspended again so I waylayed him. I waited to I saw him go into the bathroom and went in after him he was at the urinal and I RNCed him and dragged him into a stall and left him. I knew he wasn't going to tell that he got jumped and pissed on himself so I felt that sent a message. He tried to come up to me about being a punk and jumping him in the bathroom and I told him it will happen again and will get worse everytime you mess with me. He got the picture and left me alone. This became my M.O. all through out high school too. On campus I will get you in the bathroom. Off campus I had little problem beating your ass.

    My daughter is now in middle school. She is a straight A student and gets inducted into the National Junior Honor Society this Friday (I wish so much that I could be there) I've been teaching here Judo and Boxing since she was 7. She had her first bully when we were in Georgia. She didn't want to get in trouble at school but she also had to walk home the same way with the girl. She asked me what to do and I told her that was what the Judo was for. If she lays a hand on you or threaten to do so you have to put her down hard so she gets the message. She took it literally and slammed her with an Osoto gari on the sidewalk. We move to North Carolina and she has to go through being the new kid. The next would be bully got thrown, mounted, and punched in the face after she hit my daughter. My daughter said the girl didn't hit as hard as I did so she knew it was going to be easy.
    ^^^ THIS THIS THIS
    Absolutely everything about the above makes me smile. Except that it was posted twice.

    Props for training your daughter up from a little bug. I did the same with mine until he knew everything I did, and then I passed him off to Mark Dellagrotte. T HUNTER's 11 year old daughter is a BEAST. I think Omega can verify. They call her "The Huntress".

    Oh, and Gezere, I never thanked you for your service before. THANK YOU.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  7. Hertzyscowicz is online now

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2010 11:25am


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    This is all good advice. You should check whether his school has a "zero tolerance for fighting" policy; chances are that it does. At worst, that means that any effective physical action he takes in his own defense is likely to be interpreted as "fighting" by the school administration and lead to his being suspended or expelled (or, sad and ridiculous but true, even arrested).
    And what makes it really fucked up? The kid can't just get the bully suspended for a week because it's his friend against the bully and his friends.

    I remember reading this article on how a parent should go about this sort of thing. I think it was linked on Bullshido but can't find it. The gist of it was that the school will be trying to cover it's own ass and doesn't really give much of a damn about the kids. So, get an audio recorder, and keep pushing for the school do do something about the bullying. Also, if you have the disposable income, put a lawyer on retainer and make sure the school at least knows this. Insist on recording all the conversations, keep copies of the emails etc. Especially insist on having a face-to-face between your kid and the bully, with both parties' parents present, and another parents only meeting, and record both of them.

    That way, with you keeping records, the school won't dare sweep it under the rug as one student's word against another's, and if the bully's parents end up suing you for a new set of teeth, you can point out you've told them to get their **** together so the bully could keep his teeth.

    Also, consider using a more lawyer-friendly phrasing than "Get your **** together so your son can keep his teeth" when recording the conversation.
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2010 11:34am

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    This is all bad advice IMO. Sounds great, does not correspond to reality. Maofas has it nailed.

    Just my $0.02: Every single time this happens and the school finds out about it, KK gets suspended. Every single time I ask them"Did he throw the first punch? Has he EVER thrown the first punch in ANY incident you know of?" They always have to answer NO, and they often are forced to give the other child a more severe punishment. Bottom line: if your kid is not starting fights, she is not getting expelled or sent to juvvie.

    @maofas "single dads working" fixed!
    I think that you're over-generalizing based on your own experience; some administrations interpret "zero tolerance" much more literally than others.

    Unfortunately, responding to violence with greater/more efficient violence is exactly the sort of thing the zero tolerance policy was set up to stomp on. BTW, "zero tolerance" in this context is usually traced back to the rash of massive lawsuits following the Columbine massacre; school boards realized that it behooved them to be able to demonstrate draconian anti-violence policies when called to account in a court of law. The fact that meant that they were disempowering bullied kids was "de-prioritized" in favor of covering their own asses legally.

    Typical school policy re. physical bullying = "just walk away". More unusual, but not by any means exceptional: "fall into a fetal position and cover your face with your hands until the bully stops attacking you". I **** you not.

    There are ways for bullied kids to stand a chance at defending themselves without risking disproportionate punishment from the system that is supposed to be "providing a safe learning environment", but unfortunately they require serious and specialized training.
  9. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2010 11:35am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WW, I think you're the first single dad I've ever "met".

    Quote Originally Posted by devil View Post
    When I was in the seventh grade, one of my friends put his lock in his hand with the clasp over his finger like brass knuckles and laid out this gargantuan missing link girl who had been relentlessly fucking with him. It was epic.
    During my first teaching gig, one day I hear a huge commotion outside in the hallway (more huge than normal I mean). This huge girl (whom all the kids referred to as Big Shirley) has one of my students (who is on the basketball team and towers over me at 16 years...and I'm 6' tall) grabbed by his neck and is repeatedly slamming his head into a locker while 3 school police ineffectively try to wrestle her off. They finally wrestle her down and put her in those plastic strip handcuff things and take her away. One of them turns to me as they're leaving and is like "Next time I'm shooting her in the leg!"

    Yeah, so after that the girl starts randomly showing up to my first period class every day, just to say good morning to me in this tiny little voice that doesn't seem like it should come from her.

    And my kids are like "Ooooo mister....Big Shirley likes you!"
  10. Alucard619 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2010 11:41am


     Style: The Way of Hand and Foot

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry to hear this. I can relate to how this kid must feel. All through middle school I had to deal with ass clowns picking fights and threatening to get you jumped. Culminated in 8th grade when I got so fed up with this one kid constantly trying to pick fights that I snapped.

    He saw me walking down the hall and approached me, mouthing off. Before he even got within five feet of me I threw my bag off, charged him, threw him down and just pummeled the **** out of him. I didn't even stop when two of my buddies and my teacher pulled me off. It was at that point my mom signed me up for TKD.

    Schools unfortunately punish both bully and defender. From what you have described and the advice being offered I say you are doing a stand up job in helping this kid out.
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