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  1. Res Judicata is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2010 11:50am


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You guys are talking past each other. There are a handful of people in the US who are legitimate instructors of koryu. A guy like, say, Ellis Amdur is legitimate, verifiable and not out to scam anyone.
    There are many others teaching arts that are either total frauds or devolved Judo. Mark has explained some of his very bad, very personal history with them.

    Note that a lot of the conversation has blurred the distinction between "koryu" and "gendai budo". Arts like Daito-ryu, Hakko-ryu, aikido, etc. are not koryu at least because they are post-Meijii. Takenouchi-ryu is koryu.
    Last edited by Res Judicata; 5/25/2010 11:56am at .
  2. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2010 1:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    You guys are talking past each other. There are a handful of people in the US who are legitimate instructors of koryu. A guy like, say, Ellis Amdur is legitimate, verifiable and not out to scam anyone.
    There are many others teaching arts that are either total frauds or devolved Judo. Mark has explained some of his very bad, very personal history with them.

    Note that a lot of the conversation has blurred the distinction between "koryu" and "gendai budo". Arts like Daito-ryu, Hakko-ryu, aikido, etc. are not koryu at least because they are post-Meijii. Takenouchi-ryu is koryu.
    I agree with you 100% My problem is there are so few of them when taken in total context. For every one of them, there are over 100 people with Juko-kai type papers.

    The bottom line is that it is vastly more likely you are dealing with a fraud in these matters and a person should be VERY skeptical when these terms come up.
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  3. NeilG is online now
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2010 2:01pm


     Style: Kendo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    The bottom line is that it is vastly more likely you are dealing with a fraud in these matters and a person should be VERY skeptical when these terms come up.
    On this we can agree.
  4. FourT6and2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2010 2:03pm


     Style: Jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    I agree with you 100% My problem is there are so few of them when taken in total context. For every one of them, there are over 100 people with Juko-kai type papers.

    The bottom line is that it is vastly more likely you are dealing with a fraud in these matters and a person should be VERY skeptical when these terms come up.
    I'm sorry, you said "all" koryu in the US are B.S. That's what I'm talking about. There are plenty of legitimate koryu practitioners and Menkyo Kaiden holders who are licensed to teach their respective arts within the US. You need to be smart enough and have enough common sense to weed out the people who are shady and are making false claims. I've given a number of valid examples of this that you have chosen to ignore. As others have said we seem to be "talking past each other." I know what you're getting at and I agree. There are lots of frauds out there.

    However, legit koryu groups do exist as well. You need to understand this.

    The bottom line is that if you do your research and know who is who in the Japanese martial arts world, you shouldn't be dealing with a fraud in the first place. It's easy to find out if an instructor's story is legit. The koryu world is fairly small. Everyone knows each other or of each other. If "Joe-Bob" claims he's the soke of some 875 koryu called "Young-Duck Sits on Log-ryu" it's not that hard to figure out what the deal is.

    Go over to koryu.com. Click on an art. You'll see links to valid sources on those arts with information you can trust. The people who run that site are knowledgeable and trustworthy.

    Here's an example:

    Yagu Shinkage ryu

    Systems: kenjutsu (odachi, kodachi, nitto)
    Date founded: late Muromachi period, ca. 1568
    Founded by: Kamiizumi Ise-no-Kami Nobutsuna, 1508-1578; the Yagyu line was founded by Yagyu Sekishusai Munetoshi, 1527-1606
    Present representative/headmaster: 22nd soke Yagyu Koichi
    Primarily located in: Aichi

    Below that, on koryu.com, is a list of publications, articles, history, resources, links and official affiliated dojo around the world including their instructors, their lineage and any and all other information you could possibly want or need in order to verify their legitimacy and a way to contact those who could verify said legitimacy if need be.

    There's also a list of officially sanctioned dojo:

    Edo Yagyu Shin Kage Ryu
    Yamato Yagyu-kai dojo, led by Paul Manogue, in Philadelphia, PA.
    Training at the Martial Arts & Fitness Center - Malvern, PA
    Taught by Kelly Knight under the supervision of Paul Manogue of the Yamato Yagyukai.
    Yagyu Shinkage-ryu at the Shutokukan Dojo, East Hanover, NJ
    Under the direction of Meik Skoss.
    Yagyu Shinkage-Ryu Hyouho
    Otsubo line of Owari Yagyu Shinkage-ryu; as taught by Muto Musao's successor, Kajitsuka Yasushi.

    And a list of official organizations:

    Shinkageryu Hyoho
    Official home page of the U.S. Marobashikai, under the direction of Watanabe Tadashige.
    Yagyu Shinkage-ryu
    The official site of the Yagyukai, under the direction of 22nd headmaster Yagyu Koichi.
    Yamato Yagyu-Kai
    Edo Yagyu Shinkage-ryu Hyoho in Osaka, Philadelphia, PA, and Tampa Bay, FL.

    If you're still crying "fraud!" then there's really nothing left to say.
    Last edited by FourT6and2; 5/25/2010 2:06pm at .
  5. BIG ICE HOLE is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2010 6:25pm


     Style: Judo, Jiu Jitsu, NO-GI

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by declaw View Post
    Great video, thanks.

    The more research I do, the more it seems like the most effective combo for real street fighting skills is BJJ and Muy Thai. I just wish one of them also included pressure point type ****.
    I am not as accomplished as many others on this forum, so please keep in mind this is only my opinion. As a former gang banger in my youth, and someone who also trains in and teaches BJJ, if you use it in a street fight, you very likely will get your head stepped on by someone. It may work wonders in a fair, one-on-one fight without any weapons, but how many of those have you seen lately?
  6. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2010 7:48pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BIG ICE HOLE View Post
    I am not as accomplished as many others on this forum, so please keep in mind this is only my opinion. As a former gang banger in my youth, and someone who also trains in and teaches BJJ, if you use it in a street fight, you very likely will get your head stepped on by someone. It may work wonders in a fair, one-on-one fight without any weapons, but how many of those have you seen lately?
    You are new to this forum...and for some reason I find myself filled with brotherly affection at the moment, so I'll share some words of wisdom that were shared with me when I first began posting...

    Read more. Post less.

    At least for now.

    EDIT:

    Actually, those words of wisdom were never shared with me when I first started posting here. I was lauded for my wisdom and beneficience from day one.



    You're welcome.
  7. BIG ICE HOLE is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2010 9:10pm


     Style: Judo, Jiu Jitsu, NO-GI

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    You are new to this forum...and for some reason I find myself filled with brotherly affection at the moment, so I'll share some words of wisdom that were shared with me when I first began posting...

    Read more. Post less.

    At least for now.

    EDIT:

    Actually, those words of wisdom were never shared with me when I first started posting here. I was lauded for my wisdom and beneficience from day one.



    You're welcome.
    Thanks for the brotherly affection. Right back at you.:kiss:
  8. judoist is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2010 4:01pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IMO, BJJ is better. Not because of the art itself, but because of the quality of training and in general, training methodologies. For the most part, BJJ schools are better than JJJ schools. That is not to say there aren't any exeptions - you could probably come across a good JJJ school/dojo every once in a while. There are quite a few good Jujutsuka that study Japanese styles. However, in general, BJJ is better, simply because the count of quality instruction when compared to the number of schools/gyms is better. Maybe not that much or that dramatic, but certainly better.
  9. jessenwarrior is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    6/18/2010 8:41am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    jujutsuka basicly mean jjj our brazilian friends would never use jujutsuka. Also I dont think Bjj is better it just developed under modern conditions. You have to remember under ancient japan conditions the guard would have never developed because it would have never worked in armor against people weilding weapons and armor piercing short swords.
  10. Yoj is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    6/18/2010 10:28am


     Style: Aikijujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jessenwarrior View Post
    jujutsuka basicly mean jjj our brazilian friends would never use jujutsuka. Also I dont think Bjj is better it just developed under modern conditions. You have to remember under ancient japan conditions the guard would have never developed because it would have never worked in armor against people weilding weapons and armor piercing short swords.
    What about when they werent wearing armor, or did they wear it 24/7?
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