Tai CHi Sparring.

[DerAuslander]

Hey, I might be ignorant, I might be an ass hat, but...

...what was the third thing you called me?

Gorgeous?

[Permalost]

Push Hands is definitely a form of wrestling. Surely anything where you try to off balance your opponent is?

I specified fixed step push hands, because you're not allowed to move around and do proper wrestling techniques. Moving step push hands I would call a kind of wrestling, but there's no reaping, shooting, grapevining, hooking the back or head (thus excluding some excellent throws), sacrifice throws or pinning (not to mention chokes, locks, and ground positioning).

[Sri Hanuman]

Gorgeous?

Damn you. We both know the third one is the one I am meant to refute.

[Cuchulain]

I specified fixed step push hands, because you're not allowed to move around and do proper wrestling techniques. Moving step push hands I would call a kind of wrestling, but there's no reaping, shooting, grapevining, hooking the back or head (thus excluding some excellent throws), sacrifice throws or pinning (not to mention chokes, locks, and ground positioning).

I didn't say it wasn't restrictive but who says wrestling can't be restrictive. Where do you draw the line?

Greco-Roman has different rules to Judo, Judo has different rules to Sumo, Sumo has different rules to SAMBO etc.

They are all trying to teach a specific style which comes under the banner of wrestling and Push Hands is the Taiji ruleset for teaching the Taiji method of wrestling.

I can understand your hesitancy to call Push Hands wrestling though. It's kind of like how WTF TKD is a technically full contact Martial Art.

[Permalost]

I didn't say it wasn't restrictive but who says wrestling can't be restrictive. Where do you draw the line?

Greco-Roman has different rules to Judo, Judo has different rules to Sumo, Sumo has different rules to SAMBO etc.

They are all trying to teach a specific style which comes under the banner of wrestling and Push Hands is the Taiji ruleset for teaching the Taiji method of wrestling.

I can understand your hesitancy to call Push Hands wrestling though. It's kind of like how WTF TKD is a technically full contact Martial Art.

I should mention that for a few years I spent a few hours a week playing push hands with people who compete internationally, so I'm not just some jerk who hates tai chi, but I don't do it anymore (I actually wish I had a push hands partner still). Anyway, judo, sumo, SAMBO, BJJ might have different rules, but they all allow you to maneuver around your opponent within some amount of space. Fixed step only allows you one forward or backwards motion (if that). Grappling for fighting is about maneuvering yourself into a position to hurt an opponent and keep them from hurting you, and they can move however they want. I think moving step is fairly useful in this capacity, but not fixed step. To me, calling fixed step wrestling is like calling chi sau boxing.

[It is Fake]

CodosDePiedra stop. He is playing a semantics game with you. You have defined what you mean by push hands. Your definition explains why push hands does not equal wrestling.

He is now nit picking your definition by stretching it into all push hands while, not defining his own position.

Notice you have gotten away from wrestling not equaling "sparring" but, sambo, judo, etc are now are variations of wrestling.

[Rivington]

I specified fixed step push hands, because you're not allowed to move around and do proper wrestling techniques. Moving step push hands I would call a kind of wrestling, but there's no reaping, shooting, grapevining, hooking the back or head (thus excluding some excellent throws), sacrifice throws or pinning (not to mention chokes, locks, and ground positioning).

It's true that in push hands tournaments in North America those moves are often barred, but that has more to say about the overly stringent rules of tournaments in North America than it has to do with tai chi or tui shou. When we do push hands in my class, we often hook arms or back, do chin-na, sweep/reap, choke, etc. No ground positioning, that is true.

Fixed step tui shou, which is fun, I'd suggest is analogous to a pummeling drill in scholastic wrestling. Which is also fun, but you'd not be a very good wrestler if you all you did was pummeling drills.

[It is Fake]

Yes, it is a huge problem.

[Permalost]

CodosDePiedra stop. He is playing a semantics game with you. You have defined what you mean by push hands. Your definition explains why push hands does not equal wrestling.

He is now nit picking your definition by stretching it into all push hands while, not defining his own position.

I'm pretty much done anyway.

Notice you have gotten away from wrestling not equaling "sparring" but, sambo, judo, etc are now are variations of wrestling.

I kinda figured he was using wrestling to mean grappling or fighting without strikes, and judo, sambo (sometimes), sumo etc qualify.

It's true that in push hands tournaments in North America those moves are often barred, but that has more to say about the overly stringent rules of tournaments in North America than it has to do with tai chi or tui shou. When we do push hands in my class, we often hook arms or back, do chin-na, sweep/reap, choke, etc. No ground positioning, that is true.

Sounds like you're at a good tai chi school, but its kind of telling that tournaments with chin na, etc can't be found in an area as huge as North America (as far as I know; I hear the East Coast is a little better).

Fixed step tui shou, which is fun, I'd suggest is analogous to a pummeling drill in scholastic wrestling. Which is also fun, but you'd not be a very good wrestler if you all you did was pummeling drills.

Exactly.

[Sri Hanuman]

It's true that in push hands tournaments in North America those moves are often barred, but that has more to say about the overly stringent rules of tournaments in North America than it has to do with tai chi or tui shou. When we do push hands in my class, we often hook arms or back, do chin-na, sweep/reap, choke, etc. No ground positioning, that is true.

Wasn't there a story about Ren Guang Yi entering an American push-hand competition, and losing due to violating a number of their rules and restrictions?