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  1. hapkido_keith is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2010 3:51am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry for the lateness of my reply, Iíve been on a business trip and havenít had much personal internet time

    Iíll start with the easy stuff first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp
    <<<Who said I was progressive? >>>

    You did with everything you have just posted.
    Wrong. Our actual views on gun rights and gun ownership probably differ very little. I own several guns and have posted pictures of them in this very sub-forum.

    <<<Can I refute the ties to "leftist" politics in the things in your post? No.>>>

    Of course you can't. That is my point. You will now attempt to change it again...

    <<<But if you'd like, I can list a whole heap of civil rights infringments that "rightist" politics have produced, and you know damn well I can.>>>

    But that is not on point now is it?

    <<<<There is more to politics than gun rights and more reason to back one party over the other than gun rights.>>>

    But there is only ONE subject in this thread.
    But the subject in this thread has to do with politics beyond gun control. The OP says:
    I am all for protecting the second amendment, but it's my opinion that they go way outside that mission and I am leery of giving money to an organization that supports individuals that are an anathema to everything I believe in. (Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Chuck Norris, etc.).
    Heís asking how to support his gun rights without sacrificing everything else he believes in. Your advice was:
    Wow... Here is a thought, STOP supporting people who WILL eliminate the 2nd amendment given half a chance.
    or for him to go ahead and sacrifice everything he believes in with no other option. The reasons why he might not want to do this are worth mentioning.

    <<<If you insist that gun rights must be packaged with the rest of conservative ideology, then you risk alienating the public, who will vote against you, and your rights may be stripped from you by popular demand.>>>


    No, as I reject this premise on its face, it is not in keeping with the subject of this thread, to wit, the NRA and what they stand for.
    Itís nice that you want to bury your head in the sand on this one.

    You havenít actually said anything about the NRA or what they stand for, or why anyone should support them. The only thing youíve done is talk about what bad bad people those anti-gun activists are, how they have liberal ties (yet fail to show that ALL liberals have anti-gun ties). You havenít said anything about why I should support the NRA, you just go on and on about how the liberals are out to get my guns.

    <<<If you cannot accept this, you can stop reading my post now, go on your merry way, take a nice big swing of the NRA's kool-aid, and think me whatever kind of gun-grabbing socialist liberal progressive Marxist commie (did I leave anything out?) you want me to be. >>>

    Shall I now link the Wiki part about "straw man" for you? If you can't focus on THIS point, you are the one who needs to go on.
    Please do, but you may want to actually read it yourself first.

    <<<And on the note of refusal you didn't even try to understand what I posted, much less refute it. Just the old neo-con game of "that sounds like edumacated talk thar, I dun need nun of that edumacation">>>

    You saying it doesn't make it so. You had no way to refute my point, and said so here, so you changed the subject. I called you on it, and we get more of this. That is the real game, sorry, not playing.

    <<<What premise would that be? That not all the world is evenly and neatly divided into left and right? Perish the thought.>>>

    Straw man again. Its the subject changing I reject. But when you can not refute the points....
    No one has contested that gun control activists have liberal ties. There is more to this discussion than whether or not gun control activists have liberal ties.

    <M<<I am not trying to troll you Mr. Tripp. I am not trying to mock you. I am trying to point out where you are using faulty logic, in hopes that you may re-evaluate your thinking, and adjust accordingly.>>>

    Wow, just leftist progressive clap trap. Now I need to be re-educated? How communist of you. See how easy it is to play your game with you? If there is a flaw in MY POINT ABOUT WHO SUPPORTS GUN RIGHTS AND WHO DOES NOT please make that.
    Frankly Iím beginning to suspect that it would be impossible for you to be re-educated.

    <<<Penn Jillete supports gun rights, clearly. Penn Jillete is also a hard-core atheist. He's pro-legalization of drugs. He's pro-sex education. He has many other views that would make Glenn Beck rant about what a pinko-communist this Jellette guy is. He is NOT conservative, not by any stretch of the imagination. Yet, somehow, he's pro-gun. >>>

    Not somehow, he is.
    Yes. I said he was. Glad there is no confusion.

    YOU want to change my point. All I asked was who in the US put forth the anti-gun items I listed. YOU took off because, you can't handle the truth. My point in bringing up Penn was EXACTLY that even though there are MILES of differences between Penn and Glenn, Glenn has him on the show all the time and even Penn knows they anti gun crowd has it wrong. So it is ONLY ONE group pushing the anti gun agenda, now, let me know when you want to discuss that.
    Again, no one disputes that those who support gun control have liberal ties.

    <<<The dilemma that I must choose between right or left, and accept everything that goes with it, in order to protect my gun rights, is false. There are other choices.>>>

    Can you at least admit you have no answers, or at least don't like the answers, to the questions I asked?
    Aside from the fact that Iíve already answered that, this has nothing to do with your post creating a false dilemma. The fact that your post only gave two possible answer, left or right, when clearly there are other options, makes it, by definition, a false dilemma.

    How about I ask another one; name the leftist group that has done 1/2 of what the NRA has done to support gun rights? Hell name ANY group that has done 1/2 of what the NRA has done?
    The NRA has probably done more to promote gun rights than any other lobby. That doesnít mean I have to like or support them in order to own a gun or advocate my own gun owning rights.

    Sorry, but you see, from where I sit, this is a ONE ISSUE discussion. Who, EXACTLY, supports the second amendment as the framers wanted it.
    Iím sorry, but this doesnít seem like the question that was asked in the OP. what was it again? Oh yeah:
    I am all for protecting the second amendment, but it's my opinion that they go way outside that mission and I am leery of giving money to an organization that supports individuals that are an anathema to everything I believe in. (Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Chuck Norris, etc.).
    I donít believe that asks which political party is responsible for gun control legislation.

    There is only ONE clear answer to that questionÖSo, I shall make the point plain. If you believe in gun rights, there is NO ONE on the left who will support your position. When you vote for the left, your vote is against gun rights. Wiggle all you wish, but the evidence is there for those honest enough to look.
    Well actually, Brian Schweitzer is a Democrat and a noted pro-gun advocate. The NRA itself even endorsed Democrat Rosalind Kurita in her senate race in 2008. Just type in ďpro gun democratĒ or ďpro gun liberalĒ into google and you may be surprised at what you find.

    If you have a problem with the NRA, then don't join. We neither need or want your support. We're doing just fine.
    Well thereís one thing we can agree on.

    ______________________________________

    Quote Originally Posted by BadUglyMagic
    ] Reciprocation? Are you implying the same either or beliefs that HJ espouses? The implication being that if I want to keep my Second Amendment civil right then by default I believe the rest of the civil rights are should be abridged or abolished.

    The 2nd Amendent is one civil right. While the ACLU actively works to protect the rest of our enumerated civil rights, it does not do any work to protect a citizens Second Amendment civil right. That is one of the reasons for the NRA, the Pink Pistols, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, etc.
    What Iím saying is that the ACLU doesnít have to be this way. If you would just
    become a member, donate time, money or both. Change the message.
    or reciprocate what youíd like others to do with the NRA, you could change an organization like the ACLU for the better. Itís not just my civil liberties lobby. Itís your civil liberties lobby. Whether you like it or not.
  2. BadUglyMagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2010 9:01am


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    [quote=hapkido_keith;2373469]


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BadUglyMagic
    ] Reciprocation? Are you implying the same either or beliefs that HJ espouses? The implication being that if I want to keep my Second Amendment civil right then by default I believe the rest of the civil rights are should be abridged or abolished.

    The 2nd Amendent is one civil right. While the ACLU actively works to protect the rest of our enumerated civil rights, it does not do any work to protect a citizens Second Amendment civil right. That is one of the reasons for the NRA, the Pink Pistols, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, etc. end quote

    Quote Originally Posted by hapkido_keith
    What I’m saying is that the ACLU doesn’t have to be this way. If you would just
    BadUglyMagic Quote:
    become a member, donate time, money or both. Change the message.


    Quote Originally Posted by hapkido_keith
    or reciprocate what you’d like others to do with the NRA, you could change an organization like the ACLU for the better. It’s not just my civil liberties lobby. It’s your civil liberties lobby. Whether you like it or not.

    What I’m saying is that the ACLU doesn’t have to be this way. If you would just

    or reciprocate what you’d like others to do with the NRA, you could change an organization like the ACLU for the better. It’s not just my civil liberties lobby. It’s your civil liberties lobby. Whether you like it or not.



    Feel free to read or reread the quoted post and then point out any comment disparaging the ACLU.

    Even better, reread any post in this or any other thread and point out any comments disparaging the ACLU.


    Last edited by BadUglyMagic; 5/20/2010 9:09am at .
  3. money is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2010 10:20am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by chainpunch View Post
    I dont understand your analogy at all. The myth is propagated by people who dont understand how firearms and individual shooters work and function/ perform. What loony people head up and staff the NRA? Its a nonpartisan group and just about the only group that does something for 2nd amendment rights infringements.

    Yes, the people who support the NRA seem to be people who you dont agree with in terms of ideology. I think the people who you generally side with have no cares or concerns about 2nd A. so you just happen to be in a minority with little representation. You just cant stand the people that bring attention to an otherwise quiet organization. So hate them but why hate an organization because of the people that support it?
    Yes, the myth is propagated by people who don't understand how firearms and individual shooters work and this myth will continue to propagate until these people are educated. The point I am trying to make is that the public image of the NRA is not something that will attract these people to become educated.

    I did not say that loonies headed up or staffed the NRA, I said the loonies represented it and are supported by it. On the front page of the NRA website, the flash scrolls through Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Oliver North, Newt Gingrich, Chuck Norris and John Bolton. This does not portray the image of a non-partisan group.

    You are mistaken that I am in a minority among my friends in regards to the second amendment. In actuality, most of my friends are progressive or libertarian and almost all are gun friendly and/or shooters themselves.

    In summary, I do not hate the NRA, I simply disagree with their methods. I think it would better serve the cause of second amendment protection to focus less on partisanship and more on education. I believe they should widen the net to educate and attract more people like myself, who exist in larger numbers than I think most people realize.

    Regarding Katrina, in my opinion that was a watershed moment in the fight for the 2nd amendment. The fact that within a few days time civilization could completely fall apart not 6 hours away from my home sent a sobering message about a persons responsibility to be able to protect themselves and their families.
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  4. Southpaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2010 11:36am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm a big fan of guns...and shooting things.

    I think the NRA is heading quickly down the wrong road and alienating itself from people like me who WANT to support an organization that fights for my rights to own guns.

    They play too many politics.

    Have Palin speak at your rally and say things like "Obama wants to take away your guns" is nothing more than inflammatory rhetoric that does nothing other than whip right-wing nutcases into a frenzy.

    Obama has not said or done one thing that would make me worried about him taking away our guns...so why does the NRA need to be so divisive?
  5. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2010 2:33pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    so why does the NRA need to be so divisive?
    Because it brings in the dollars, just look at Mr. Tripp's comments in this thread to see the income potential inherent in riling those who feel threatened.


    A Note to Mr. Tripp: I wrote the preceding statement because I regard you to be an intelligent and insightful individual (alliteration is wonderful) who has been victimized by the divisiveness being discussed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    cuz FastPass on Indiana Jones was like being a ghetto rock star.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiko
    But graffiti isn't a bowl of fruit...
    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    Merely insulting you is not an ad hominem fallacy: them calling you an idiot would be ad hominem if they said "You are an idiot, therefore your argument is invalid."

    What is instead happening is thus:
    1. Your argument is bullshit.
    2. You keep repeating, and expanding upon, your argument.
    3. Therefore, you are an idiot.

    That isn't an ad hominem fallacy; that's inductive reasoning.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2010 4:23pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadUglyMagic View Post


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BadUglyMagic
    ] Reciprocation? Are you implying the same either or beliefs that HJ espouses? The implication being that if I want to keep my Second Amendment civil right then by default I believe the rest of the civil rights are should be abridged or abolished.

    The 2nd Amendent is one civil right. While the ACLU actively works to protect the rest of our enumerated civil rights, it does not do any work to protect a citizens Second Amendment civil right. That is one of the reasons for the NRA, the Pink Pistols, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, etc. end quote



    BadUglyMagic Quote:
    become a member, donate time, money or both. Change the message.







    Feel free to read or reread the quoted post and then point out any comment disparaging the ACLU.

    Even better, reread any post in this or any other thread and point out any comments disparaging the ACLU.


    Quit playing with he font and show where his comment implies you disparaged the ACLU.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 5/20/2010 4:31pm at .
  7. hapkido_keith is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2010 7:53pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadUglyMagic View Post

    Feel free to read or reread the quoted post and then point out any comment disparaging the ACLU.

    Even better, reread any post in this or any other thread and point out any comments disparaging the ACLU.

    Feel free to point out where I said you did.

    Editted to add: The ACLU was chosen at random. I want to know if you're willing to donate your time and money to change an organization that you don't necessarily agree with in the same way you are asking others to do with the NRA
    Last edited by hapkido_keith; 5/20/2010 8:00pm at .
  8. chainpunch is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2010 9:07pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Money View Post
    Yes, the myth is propagated by people who don't understand how firearms and individual shooters work and this myth will continue to propagate until these people are educated. The point I am trying to make is that the public image of the NRA is not something that will attract these people to become educated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Money View Post

    I did not say that loonies headed up or staffed the NRA, I said the loonies represented it and are supported by it. On the front page of the NRA website, the flash scrolls through Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Oliver North, Newt Gingrich, Chuck Norris and John Bolton. This does not portray the image of a non-partisan group.

    You are mistaken that I am in a minority among my friends in regards to the second amendment. In actuality, most of my friends are progressive or libertarian and almost all are gun friendly and/or shooters themselves.

    In summary, I do not hate the NRA, I simply disagree with their methods. I think it would better serve the cause of second amendment protection to focus less on partisanship and more on education. I believe they should widen the net to educate and attract more people like myself, who exist in larger numbers than I think most people realize.

    Regarding Katrina, in my opinion that was a watershed moment in the fight for the 2nd amendment. The fact that within a few days time civilization could completely fall apart not 6 hours away from my home sent a sobering message about a personís responsibility to be able to protect themselves and their families.


    Money, your take issue with the NRA for who supports it. It is non-partisan. The problem is not that the NRA only chooses to accept help from people you dont like its that people you do like dont support the NRA. As noted by someone else the NRA has endorsed Democrats, I even remember when Al gore did some events for NRA. If the cause is righteous why do you care that people you disagree with are in agreement with you? I think this is a big problem with many lefties is that their dislike for some people prevents them from having anything to do with them.

    The NRA still does more for marksmanship and education than any other organization. As a bonus they also fight for 2nd A violations and even though I think they are soft on defending it no one else can fill their shoes.

    You mention Glen Beck but then you include Libertarians as part of your group of friend. Glen Beck, Penn Jillette, John Stossel, Ron Paul, and myself, we are all Libertarians. We can sound and seem very different from each other but we are all fiscal conservatives and social liberals. Morals are different, attitudes are different. Some of us think drugs are for the weak minded but we want freedom to fail. Others think drugs are ok and of course want to legalize it. Whatever our reasons we think free people should be free. I think the Libertarians you may not like are the ones that mock the people you like. This rubs many people the wrong way but who cares. We can do it we will never be elected to a high level of office anyways.

    Again, people of your political persuasion are welcome to sponsor the NRA they just choose not to which leaves only the people you dislike.
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/21/2010 9:08am

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    "Fiscal conservatives and social liberals"...

    If that's what you think Libertarianism is about, do me a favor and just join the Republican party.
  10. DunkelAnanas is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2010 1:40pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by chainpunch View Post


    You mention Glen Beck but then you include Libertarians as part of your group of friend. Glen Beck, Penn Jillette, John Stossel, Ron Paul, and myself, we are all Libertarians.
    Ron Paul is a registered Republican congressman.
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