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  1. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2010 9:41am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Anyone who believes we would have gotten the Heller Decision had progressives been in charge of the white house and placing Supreme Court Justices for the last 8 years also believes Thunder curdles milk.
    You mean the same Heller decision that the NRA originally opposed and tried to stop the Cato Institute from attempting?

    The NRA are not a civil rights organization and have done as much damage through polarization as they have helped the issue.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2010 9:53am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zendokan View Post
    Maybe because there are kits on the market that turn an semi-automatic into a full automatic. Yet a trained person will make more casualties with a semi-automatic than with a full-automatic.

    The ARs are designed for Militairy use, not for hunting, sportshooting or home/personal defense.
    If you want to shoot ARs, join the Militairy, you will even get paid for using them.
    But hey if it's in the second amendment I want to buy a Thunderbolt A10 since it would be my right if I naturileze me to become a US citizen.
    Stop. Instead of talking bluster and bullshit do research. If you took the time to research "kits," research the numbers and look at how many crimes, were created with assault weapons before, during, and after the assault weapons ban.
  3. BadUglyMagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2010 9:56am


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    Quote Originally Posted by hapkido_keith View Post
    The stated reason why was to promote change from within.

    However, I wonder if the person making this suggestion would reciprocate with...ohhhh let's say the ACLU

    Yes. A bigger question is whether HJ wants to protect his civil right (and mine and yours) or feels it should be abolished. HJ, do you feel it should be abolished?

    Reciprocation? Are you implying the same either or beliefs that HJ espouses? The implication being that if I want to keep my Second Amendment civil right then by default I believe the rest of the civil rights are should be abridged or abolished.

    The 2nd Amendent is one civil right. While the ACLU actively works to protect the rest of our enumerated civil rights, it does not do any work to protect a citizens Second Amendment civil right. That is one of the reasons for the NRA, the Pink Pistols, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, etc.

    It is the collective effect of our civil rights that makes us US citizens.


    Whoohoo! Thank you HJ! I get to quote myself, again.

    Actually, the anti-civil rights people use "outrage", rhetoric and theater to motive an otherwise unmotivated citizenry to remove their civil right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooded Justice
    HOLY FUCKING ****! I have stated very plainly why I will not support the NRA and your solution is for me to support the NRA with absolutely no new reasoning as to why???
    The NRA is MY lobby. It is your lobby. Whether you like it or not. Bolding and type added for emphasis
    Last edited by BadUglyMagic; 5/17/2010 10:02am at . Reason: correct initials
  4. Shamash is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2010 10:10am


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    Quote Originally Posted by Zendokan View Post
    Maybe because there are kits on the market that turn an semi-automatic into a full automatic. Yet a trained person will make more casualties with a semi-automatic than with a full-automatic.

    The ARs are designed for Militairy use, not for hunting, sportshooting or home/personal defense.
    If you want to shoot ARs, join the Militairy, you will even get paid for using them.
    But hey if it's in the second amendment I want to buy a Thunderbolt A10 since it would be my right if I naturileze me to become a US citizen.

    I misunderstood one part of what you originally said. When you said "AR" I assumed you were specifically talking about AR-15's and not Assault Rifles in general.

    What is your definition of an assault rifle? If you are against civilian ownership of a gun that was used in the military you would ban a lot of hunting rifles since many of them are in fact civilian versions of former military rifles. The common 30-06 was at one time a military rifle. Even the M-16/AR-15 frames have been adapted for hunting now. More than one company has took the AR-15 frame and chambered it to shoot hunting calibers with a five round clip.

    I get frustrated with all the hypothetical senario's like the fear that someone is going to obtain the ubiquitous "full auto kit". Hypothetically a skilled machinist and engineer could make a fully automatic grenade launcher, but I don't particularly worry about that senario.

    IMO I think law abiding citizens should be allowed to buy any firearm that isn't fully automatic. I do not think there should be a restriction on semi automatic guns. I've not made up my mind on regulating clip size. It didn't bother me too much when clips that held over ten rounds were banned.
  5. Tom .C is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2010 10:14am

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    Paul Helmke is the current head of the Brady campain. He is a former Republican mayor of Fort Wayne, Indiana. Call him "Left Wing" if you like but he does actually happen to be "conservative". I belong to the NRA and only contribute my dues. I believe a lot of the programs they sponser are valuable to the community of gun owners. I do not support their efforts at political fund raising or their efforts at mis-informing and deliberately mis-representing facts to promote politics.

    People who think that their interpetation of "the framers of the constitution's thoughts", are proof that "their" country is being taken away from them and the Constitution is being destroyed, need to listen to a lot less Glenn Beck. I mean really, that fucker can take any two unrelated things and connect them with a conspiracy that proves Obama is trying to destroy the Bible, the Country, Freedom, Democracy, etc. etc. etc.
  6. wonko221 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2010 10:48am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    6. Waco and Ruby Ridge, which side gave us that cluster ****, over the ATF claim that fully automatic weapons were on the premise, and yet, TO THIS DAY not a single one was found nor has it ever been proven they were there? Ill give you a hint; its the side yelling the loudest about the missing WMDs in Iraq.
    Wow....

    your hyperbole is astounding. While i accept that the government was most likely criminal at Ruby Ridge and Waco, and agree that not enough was done to investigate the decisions and responsible parties at each incident, you are absolutely fucking wrong to compare these incidences to the fabrications that lead us into a war with a sovereign state, costing us thousands of American and allied lives, hundreds of thousand more civilians in iraq, has provided extremists world-wide with a stage for their recruitment and training and, perhaps most persuasive to a conservative, has cost us hundreds of billions of dollars by the most conservative estimates.

    If this is seriously the way you view the world, and not simply rhetoric to stir up internet debate, you're fucked in the head.
  7. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2010 11:40am

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadUglyMagic View Post
    The NRA is MY lobby. It is your lobby. Whether you like it or not. Bolding and type added for emphasis
    No, actually, it's not.
  8. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2010 12:40pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zendokan View Post
    Maybe because there are kits on the market that turn an semi-automatic into a full automatic. Yet a trained person will make more casualties with a semi-automatic than with a full-automatic.

    The ARs are designed for Militairy use, not for hunting, sportshooting or home/personal defense.
    If you want to shoot ARs, join the Militairy, you will even get paid for using them.
    But hey if it's in the second amendment I want to buy a Thunderbolt A10 since it would be my right if I naturileze me to become a US citizen.
    This is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen on this site.

    Keep your misinformed nose out of the business of free men prole.
  9. Hooded Justice is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2010 12:54pm


     Style: Justice/Firearms

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadUglyMagic View Post
    Yes. A bigger question is whether HJ wants to protect his civil right (and mine and yours) or feels it should be abolished. HJ, do you feel it should be abolished?

    Reciprocation? Are you implying the same either or beliefs that HJ espouses? The implication being that if I want to keep my Second Amendment civil right then by default I believe the rest of the civil rights are should be abridged or abolished.
    I don't know that I have ever seen a person so completely incapable of reading comprehension as yourself. I give up on you. I can not state my position more plainly and if you can't understand it then I can not help you. The level of cognative dissonance you are displaying is staggering and I can't deal with it anymore.
  10. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2010 12:59pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    <<<If you insist that gun rights must be packaged with the rest of conservative ideology, then you risk alienating the public, who will vote against you, and your rights may be stripped from you by popular demand.>>>

    No, as I reject this premise on its face, it is not in keeping with the subject of this thread, to wit, the NRA and what they stand for.
    Actually, his point is very much in keeping with the subject of this thread; to wit, the original post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Money View Post
    The NRA seems to have a monopoly on most firearm training, and some ranges in my area even require a membership in order to shoot there. I am all for protecting the second amendment, but it's my opinion that they go way outside that mission and I am leery of giving money to an organization that supports individuals that are an anathema to everything I believe in. (Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Chuck Norris, etc.).

    So what is a pro-gun progressive to do?
    ----------------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    <<<The dilemma that I must choose between right or left, and accept everything that goes with it, in order to protect my gun rights, is false. There are other choices.>>>

    Can you at least admit you have no answers, or at least don't like the answers, to the questions I asked?
    Once again, the person to whom you were reply was on topic while you were not. The "other choices" mentioned in the text you quoted are exactly what this thread is meant to discuss, and the quoted text prior to those words are exactly in line with the thread author's situation.
    ----------------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Why not answer the questions I asked and lets see where that takes us...
    That reminds me, you never did answer the questions I asked you. Here they are again:
    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    Why are you so quick to turn everything into a binary argument? Before this thread turns into a massive confusion of abstract concepts and undefined terms, would you please (and I say this with copious respect) explain your definition of "progressives?"
    While my questions were clearly off topic, I had hoped that your responses would illuminate the subject the OP was discussing. Instead, you completely skipped my questions and posted this bullshit that reads like a more articulate version of Ralph Severe:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    I am always at a loss to understand how I am supposed to reply to people who are deliberately being obtuse. I simply do not know if they are indeed a donkey or simply the perfect imitation of one. Clearly I am not typing this in a futile attempt to change your point of view. You have far too much kool aid in you for that. Yes, you could say the same things about me; the problem is you lack the evidence.
    ----------------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    How about I ask another one; name the leftist group that has done 1/2 of what the NRA has done to support gun rights? Hell name ANY group that has done 1/2 of what the NRA has done?

    Sorry, but you see, from where I sit, this is a ONE ISSUE discussion. Who, EXACTLY, supports the second amendment as the framers wanted it.
    Finally, you return to the subject of this thread. You appear to be saying that supporting right wing politics is required to support the Second Amendment. How did I come to this conclusion? First you present the NRA as contrasting with leftist groups, then you say that this is a "ONE ISSUE discussion." If I am misunderstanding you, I apologize; I have briefly explained my interpretation so that we might discuss meaning rather than characterization.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    cuz FastPass on Indiana Jones was like being a ghetto rock star.
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    But graffiti isn't a bowl of fruit...
    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    Merely insulting you is not an ad hominem fallacy: them calling you an idiot would be ad hominem if they said "You are an idiot, therefore your argument is invalid."

    What is instead happening is thus:
    1. Your argument is bullshit.
    2. You keep repeating, and expanding upon, your argument.
    3. Therefore, you are an idiot.

    That isn't an ad hominem fallacy; that's inductive reasoning.
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